Protein Rests & Modified Grain

[Hogan]

Our Australian malts are said to be fully modified. The following from Palmer would suggest that there would be no benefit in applying a Protein Rest to say a Pilsner mash, unless you were using a German malt which are less modified than our own.

Are there brewers out there who do use a Protein rest with JW, BB etc when mashing for a Lager /Pilsner and what have the results been.

Palmer says:

The Protein Rest and Modification
Modification is a term which describes the degree of breakdown during malting of the protein-starch matrix (endosperm) that comprises the bulk of the seed. Moderately-modified malts need a protein rest to utilize the proteolytic enzymes that are responsible for breaking down the large proteins into smaller proteins and amino acids as well as the beta-glucanases/cytases to release the starches from the endosperm. Fully-modified malts have made use of these enzymes and do not benefit from more time spent in the protein rest regime. In fact, using a protein rest on fully modified malts tends to remove most of the body of a beer, leaving it thin and watery. Most base malt in use in the world today is fully modified. Less modified malts are often available from German maltsters. Brewers have reported fuller, maltier flavors from malts that are less modified and make use of this rest.

Cheers, Hoges.

 

[matti]

Hogan
I have been wanting to ask the same question.
Pint of lager answered a post from me regarding my last pilsner.
I was using JW pilsner export and gave it a protein rest.
It was pointed out to me that well modified malt converts in the first 20 minutes so a protein rest has to be extremely brief and the strike temperature has to be spot on.
I was conversing with MHB regarding step mashes and and he suggested to a protein rest of 10 min max.
I need to talk to JW malters to get a real answer but I am starting to think I am wasting my time with protein rest on JWP.
I think I will strike at 64 for 10-20 minutes the up to 67-68 with water addition then draw decoction from there or just add 5%carapils in the beginning.
matti

ps. the pilsner is very very thin

 

[Hogan]

Hogan
I have been wanting to ask the same question.
Pint of lager answered a post from me regarding my last pilsner.
I was using JW pilsner export and gave it a protein rest.
It was pointed out to me that well modified malt converts in the first 20 minutes so a protein rest has to be extremely brief and the strike temperature has to be spot on.
I was conversing with MHB regarding step mashes and and he suggested to a protein rest of 10 min max.
I need to talk to JW malters to get a real answer but I am starting to think I am wasting my time with protein rest on JWP.
I think I will strike at 64 for 10-20 minutes the up to 67-68 with water addition then draw decoction from there or just add 5%carapils in the beginning.
matti

ps. the pilsner is very very thin

Thanks Matti - my reason for making this post was that I have done a number of pilsners all by single step infusion. Whilst I have been told they are quite satisfactory I find that I am still striving for something better. Hence a try at 2 step temp mashing using the acid, protein and sacch rests. I have used both JW and Weyerman pilsner malt in the past so was interested in those with experience in rests using well and not so well modified malt.

Seems like using a full protein rest (as per BeerSmith) with the Weyermans would be OK and perhaps a much reduced one with JW and other well mod malts.

I am not particularly keen to do decoction mashes and would be using the immersion heater to lift temps in the MLT as Ross and Screwtop and others have mentioned in the Pilsner thread.


Cheers, Hoges.

 

[blackbock]

I am a fan of the protein rest. I like the results I get from combining a protein rest + 2-step saccharification rest mash. I would never bother to do a protein rest unless the other temperature steps (incl. mashout) are included however. I have never experienced reduced head retention after using the protein rest, in fact the opposite is true and even with Joe White I think it's worth the extra effort.

Long live the 52C rest!

 

[Zwickel]

Long live the 52C rest!

and the yeast cells will love you too :wub:

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

and the yeast cells will love you too :wub:

I like to hit about 55-56c for 20 minutes.Just a personal thing.Some science behind it but cant quote it of the top of my head.I will have a read again.

 

[Hogan]

Ah Zwickel - just sent a PM to Pumpy re your Pilsner mash as listed below. Queried the 35.c start as an acid rest. Is this because your water is short on elements and needs help getting to an acceptable PH whereas ours over in Oz is stronger in elements? So do we really need the acid rest for a Pilsner?

Also your use of Weyerman low modified malt would make a Protein Rest more necessary than our fully modified malts?


First Id like to mention, that its important to do a stepping mash.

Take 100% Pilsener malt, immerse at 35C,
heat up to 52C and rest for 20min. (thats only to get some amino acids as nutrition for the yeast)
proceed to 63C and rest for 45 to 60min (depends how dry youd like the beer to be)
step up to 72C and rest for 20min,
go to 78C and finish.

Cheers, Hoges.

 

[Zwickel]

Ah Zwickel - just sent a PM to Pumpy re your Pilsner mash as listed below. Queried the 35.c start as an acid rest. Is this because your water is short on elements and needs help getting to an acceptable PH whereas ours over in Oz is stronger in elements? So do we really need the acid rest for a Pilsner?

Also your use of Weyerman low modified malt would make a Protein Rest more necessary than our fully modified malts?
First Id like to mention, that its important to do a stepping mash.

Take 100% Pilsener malt, immerse at 35C,
heat up to 52C and rest for 20min. (thats only to get some amino acids as nutrition for the yeast)
proceed to 63C and rest for 45 to 60min (depends how dry youd like the beer to be)
step up to 72C and rest for 20min,
go to 78C and finish.

Cheers, Hoges.

Hello Hogan,

first Id like to mention, your beer label is very, very beautyful, Im jealous

To your question:
indeed our water here is very soft, perfect for a Pilsener, but also very instable, ph 8.04, almost no buffer.
But thats not the reason Im mashing in at 35C, its only to bring the enzymes into solution to prepare them for theire work. Also I dont care so much the correct temp, should be somewhere around 30 to 45C.
Very soon the mash ph drops down to ~5.4, so no need to correct anything.

I wouldnt say that the protein rest is necessary; as Ive mentioned already in previous posts, I do the protein rest only to support the yeast grow, so I dont care low or high modified malts either, do the protein rest anyway.

Let me say, that Ive never had a "thin" "watery" beer, not at all and even the froth is more than I need, very stable.
So I got only positive results with the protein rest, why I should change?

Cheers :beer:

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Ah Zwickel - just sent a PM to Pumpy re your Pilsner mash as listed below. Queried the 35.c start as an acid rest. Is this because your water is short on elements and needs help getting to an acceptable PH whereas ours over in Oz is stronger in elements? So do we really need the acid rest for a Pilsner?

Also your use of Weyerman low modified malt would make a Protein Rest more necessary than our fully modified malts?
First Id like to mention, that its important to do a stepping mash.

Take 100% Pilsener malt, immerse at 35C,
heat up to 52C and rest for 20min. (thats only to get some amino acids as nutrition for the yeast)
proceed to 63C and rest for 45 to 60min (depends how dry youd like the beer to be)
step up to 72C and rest for 20min,
go to 78C and finish.

Cheers, Hoges.

I dont use a acid rest as I dont believe the malts I use (weyermann ) need it.I do use acidulated malt in my pils recipes so this may not be nessesary if I did a acid rest. Traditionally acid rests were used in decoction mashes with undermodified malts. So could be really helpfull (acid rest) in undermodified malts though.The weyermann I use is well enough modified to leave this out I believe.I can see it being a good temp to mash in with for a short while ( thus incorperates a beta gluconase rest) then straight to protein rest .Then step it up 60s to 72c then mash out.You have to judge these things for yourself.

 

[Darren]

Hello Hogan,

To your question:
indeed our water here is very soft, perfect for a Pilsener, but also very instable, ph 8.04, almost no buffer.

Cheers :beer:

Zwickel,

Non-buffered, pure water has a pH of around 6. I would check you meter or look into what is causing the pH 8

cheers

Darren

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Zwickel,

Non-buffered, pure water has a pH of around 6. I would check you meter or look into what is causing the pH 8

cheers

Darren

Temporary hardness I would imagine.Not hard water.

 

[Darren]

Temporary hardness I would imagine.Not hard water.

Just because it it water in Germany does not mean it is free of ions or soft. pH 8 is not "pure" water. Chlorine?

cheers

Darren

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Just because it it water in Germany does not mean it is free of ions or soft. pH 8 is not "pure" water. Chlorine?

cheers

Darren

I think I have missed some thing here.How does checking your meter tell you how hard/soft (pure) your H2O is.It wont.There is a difference between permanent and temp hardness.Pure H2O is exactly that 1 part Hydrogen and 1 parts O2.Im confused at what your trying to get at.

 

[Hogan]

Hello Hogan,

first Id like to mention, your beer label is very, very beautyful, Im jealous

To your question:
indeed our water here is very soft, perfect for a Pilsener, but also very instable, ph 8.04, almost no buffer.
But thats not the reason Im mashing in at 35C, its only to bring the enzymes into solution to prepare them for theire work. Also I dont care so much the correct temp, should be somewhere around 30 to 45C.
Very soon the mash ph drops down to ~5.4, so no need to correct anything.

I wouldnt say that the protein rest is necessary; as Ive mentioned already in previous posts, I do the protein rest only to support the yeast grow, so I dont care low or high modified malts either, do the protein rest anyway.

Let me say, that Ive never had a "thin" "watery" beer, not at all and even the froth is more than I need, very stable.
So I got only positive results with the protein rest, why I should change?

Cheers :beer:

Thanks Zwickel - my label is another Franko original and I agree that it is "very, very beautyful."

Thanks to you Gryphon and Blackbock for your input. The info has been very helpful.


Cheers, Hoges.

 

[matti]

back on track boys.
Does a well modified malt protein rest assist in profile of pilsner?
How long should it be for and at what is the optimum temperature.

We already established that pilsners, especially North germans are dry and less dexterious hence the mash temps are around 63-64 with weyerman malts.

Australian malts are all well modified and the question still remais at large does our pilsner export malts benefit from protein rest other then for giving the yeasties a bit of nutrition.


Sorry guys, but try to keep the threads on topic!

 

[Stuster]

Darren, it can still be soft, even with a pH of 8. Sydney water is fairly soft and has a pH of over 8. The very soft water of Pilsen is also 8 according to Beersmith.

BTW, I never knew that pure water had a pH of 6. Good info.

 

[Hogan]

We already established that pilsners, especially North germans are dry and less dexterious hence the mash temps are around 63-64 with weyerman malts.

Australian malts are all well modified and the question still remains at large does our pilsner export malts benefit from protein rest other then for giving the yeasties a bit of nutrition.
Sorry guys, but try to keep the threads on topic!

and........ where does the dry result of a 63.c single step mash correspond to a temp rest mash. i.e. what part of the acid, protein, sacch rest makes for a dry pilsner rather than normal or sweet wort.


Hoges.

 

[LovesToBrew]

in response to the original question i have found the protein rest unnecessary in well modified grains, i had no problems in any of my batches leaving it out unless i'm using an unmodified pilsner grain. i haven't experimented with it enough to agree or disagree with what palmer says about losing body when protein resting well modified grains however.

 

[matti]

Just refering to Zwickels posts in the Pilsner thread.
It went someting in the lines acid rest at 35 aboutish
52 protein rest for his yeasties and 63-64 ish to get most of the betas out and finnish the lot off with 70ish to get the most out of the grain.

Profile: a very dry mouthfeel where the hop give the beer the taste rather then the malt.
Very bad at quoting but the content pretty true ask him you self lol
Going to eat now and take a break as i have been reading most of the day
PS i sent an email to JW an BB to sse what they have to say
cheers and hopefulyy one day will meet.

 

[Guest Lurker]

Non-buffered, pure water has a pH of around 6. I would check you meter or look into what is causing the pH 8

Darren

OT but I cant help myself. I think pure water is H+ and OH- in equilibrium. I think water at pH 6 is pure water, which is in equilibrium with atmospheric CO2 and so is no longer pure.