Party Kegs

[Thirsty Boy]

Oh, you can force carbonate without a reg - I did it for about 6months before I got a full keg set-up. My method depends on having a car tyre valve as your gas in... so if you don't have that please ignore the following.

Force carbonate with accuracy if you don't have a regulated set-up

Warning: - Unregulated gas is nasty, you could blow yourself up (don't ask how I know....) so you NEED to make sure the relief valve is working well and you NEED to be a little bit careful when you are charging C02 into the keg. If you take an eye out or a hand off, don't blame me, you were warned.

Note:- Leave a little head space in your party keg, it will make the pressure more manageable. Best to fill it only up the the 5L mark, you can get away with a little more, just not all the way to the top OK.

Purchase from autobarn/supercheap/Kmart etc etc. A bog standard tyre pressure gauge. One of the pop up ones is fine, I got a dial one from a Vietnamese $2 shop for about 5 bucks.

Alright, lets go.

• Decide how much carbonation you want in your beer. Lets call this one 2.5 volumes just to keep it standard.
• How cold is your beer?? Measure the temperature. Our example will be at 4C
• Consult a chart or look in pro-mash/beer smith to find out how much pressure you need to carbonate to that volume. our example needs 12psi
• Attach your gas and pressurize the keg carefully until the pressure relief valve starts to bleed. Now disconnect the gas, pick up the keg and shake it for a minute. Repeat 3 times.
• After the third time, let it settle for a minute or two, then use the tyre pressure gauge to read the internal pressure of the keg, its probably still a fair bit less than your desired pressure, but we need to go a little more carefully from now on to avoid over shooting.
• Pressurize your keg again, but this time only to 5psi more than your target pressure, disconnect gas and shake. Repeat this, you will need to put in less and less gas each time, until the pressure stops dropping completely and is stable at a few PSI above your target pressure.

Your beer is now carbonated to you desired level.... yes I know you are a few psi higher than your original target, but with all the grabbing measuring and shaking, you are also probably a couple of degrees warmer than when you started as well. It will be pretty close to right.

Store the beer at that pressure till you want to drink it. When you are serving, don't worry about the actual pressure of the keg, just release or shoot in gas till it pours well through your tap and line set-up. If you don't get through all the beer and you want to make sure the carbonation level is OK for next time you drink it, just a couple rounds of - measure/pressurise/shake/measure - will get it back to where it started and you will be right to go next time.

Cheers

Thirsty

 

[afromaiko]

I just took the safety valve out altogether, and replaced it with a little blanking disc cut from an old fermenter lid. I can't quote anything scientific, but I didn't have any problems with natural carbonation to roughly 2.5 volumes. I just calculated it out as if I was priming bottles. And if it does it explode, it will certainly be a party that's remembered for a long, long time. :huh:

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I blew up a single PET bottle once. I still have scars, it took just about 2 months for the bruising to go away and it cost a hundred or so dollars to get my glasses repaired.

I'm guessing it might have been a bit worse if it was a 6L container made out of 2mm thick plastic than it was with a softdrink bottle. Good luck without your pressure relief valve, I hope you never need it. I really do

 

[sah]

I blew up a single PET bottle once.

What pressure did it give out at TB?

Scott

 

[afromaiko]

If the 25psi relief valve these come with can be taken as a safe rating, then really these sprayers always need to be kept chilled when once pressurised. However when naturally carbonating 2.5 volumes at room temperature it will be about 30psi, and if others are using them at 37psi then there shouldn't be any problems. Of course when you chill it for serving it's going to drop down to about 12 psi as mentioned. I know that at 30+ degrees one of these carbonated is in the danger zone, so perhaps 2.0 volumes is better to aim for if naturally carbonating. Another safety recommendation would be to naturally carbonate at a controlled temperature like in a brew fridge with a temperature controller. The main reason I took the valve off is because it's so easy to knock it and accidentally spray beer out. If there was another more solid valve around anyone knows of I'd be happy to install it, something like the pressure relief valve that Ross is selling, but a bit pricey for a party keg setup. The real concern I have is dispensing with an unregulated Soda Stream squirter, the safest solution is to use a regulator and set it to the lowest pressure just to get the beer out of the keg. Or even safer, steer clear of these sprayers altogether. Personally I'd love one of those 9.5L cornies.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

If the 25psi relief valve these come with can be taken as a safe rating, then really these sprayers always need to be kept chilled when once pressurised. However when naturally carbonating 2.5 volumes at room temperature it will be about 30psi, and if others are using them at 37psi then there shouldn't be any problems. Of course when you chill it for serving it's going to drop down to about 12 psi as mentioned. I know that at 30+ degrees one of these carbonated is in the danger zone, so perhaps 2.0 volumes is better to aim for if naturally carbonating. Another safety recommendation would be to naturally carbonate at a controlled temperature like in a brew fridge with a temperature controller. The main reason I took the valve off is because it's so easy to knock it and accidentally spray beer out. If there was another more solid valve around anyone knows of I'd be happy to install it, something like the pressure relief valve that Ross is selling, but a bit pricey for a party keg setup. The real concern I have is dispensing with an unregulated Soda Stream squirter, the safest solution is to use a regulator and set it to the lowest pressure just to get the beer out of the keg. Or even safer, steer clear of these sprayers altogether. Personally I'd love one of those 9.5L cornies.

Unfortunately I don't think your arguments are all that convincing.... they rely on you getting things right. Sure, if you put the right amount of sugar for 2.5V in and you have waited for terminal gravity, then its probably going to be around 25psi at around 17-18C.... but if you let it get warmer, or if you made a mistake with the priming, then you are in serious danger territory. Which is why I say that no matter how inconvenient it might be, taking the pressure relief valve out of the unit is asking to blow yourself up. If you leave it in, the worst that can happen is undercarbonated beer or a bit of a spill. Even (in fact especially) if you are using the unregulated gas injector the chances of an accident are vastly reduced if the safety valve is there.

No body ever made a bottle bomb by over carbonating on purpose, and yet plenty of people have made them. Do you really want to risk a 7kg one?? You do what you like of course, but I think you are taking an immense risk with your own safety and wellbeing; and that of the people who might be near you the day you get it wrong.

SAH - I don't know what pressure it let go at... it was with an unregulated source of C02 (sodastream) and a carbonator cap. It was late, I was hungry and cooking dinner and I made a mistake. An expensive, embarrassing, painful mistake that was lucky not to cost me my eyes as well as my dignity (both lenses of my glasses knocked out... if I wasn't wearing them???) I now use only regulated gas on anything that doesn't have a safety valve. I'm not even all that comfortable with bottle conditioning anymore.

Thirsty

 

[joecast]

The natural carbonation thing confuses the issue. Pretend it doest exist for a minute OK

There are two pressures you need to worry about in a keg, they serve two different purposes.

great explanation TB. even makes sense to me at 3am
joe

 

[afromaiko]

Unfortunately I don't think your arguments are all that convincing.... they rely on you getting things right. Sure, if you put the right amount of sugar for 2.5V in and you have waited for terminal gravity, then its probably going to be around 25psi at around 17-18C.... but if you let it get warmer, or if you made a mistake with the priming, then you are in serious danger territory. Which is why I say that no matter how inconvenient it might be, taking the pressure relief valve out of the unit is asking to blow yourself up. If you leave it in, the worst that can happen is undercarbonated beer or a bit of a spill. Even (in fact especially) if you are using the unregulated gas injector the chances of an accident are vastly reduced if the safety valve is there.

No body ever made a bottle bomb by over carbonating on purpose, and yet plenty of people have made them. Do you really want to risk a 7kg one?? You do what you like of course, but I think you are taking an immense risk with your own safety and wellbeing; and that of the people who might be near you the day you get it wrong.

SAH - I don't know what pressure it let go at... it was with an unregulated source of C02 (sodastream) and a carbonator cap. It was late, I was hungry and cooking dinner and I made a mistake. An expensive, embarrassing, painful mistake that was lucky not to cost me my eyes as well as my dignity (both lenses of my glasses knocked out... if I wasn't wearing them???) I now use only regulated gas on anything that doesn't have a safety valve. I'm not even all that comfortable with bottle conditioning anymore.

Thirsty

I agree that there is an element of danger naturally carbonating and I also believe that using these pressure sprayers for a different purpose from their original intention is inviting trouble too, even if you do have a pressure relief. These things are pretty darn cheap, are they guaranteed to free from manufacturing defects and that the valve is 100% reliable? Are they made in China? Does the plastic contain above normal levels of lead? Has there been any product recalls? I wouldn't put too much faith in the sprayer bodies or the valves as this recall from September 2006 shows that they can still explode as Thirsty Boy mentions.

http://www.recalls.gov.au/view_recall_deta...l_ID_Auto=13965

The product code matches in the below flyer from 2005, but I can't be certain if it's the exact same model. They look just like the ones many people have been using. Unfortunately, the recall doesn't state where the problem lay so we don't know if the valves had a problem or if bodies gave way at too low a pressure.

http://www.echo.net.au/archives/19_46/pdf/p06.pdf

It's too late to take it back to Mitre 10 or Bunnings for a refund after it explodes while you are 'just testing' to see what pressure the relief valve triggers at. What's worse is that the cases of exploding sprayers were probably caused only by pressure generated by use of the built in hand pump. Thirsty Boy, the matter of the valve aside, after your exploding PET bottle I can't believe you would advocate force carbonating one of these sprayers using unregulated CO2, just because you never had a problem for 6 months doesn't mean that no one else may with their particular model sprayer.

Naturally carbonated or force carbonated it doesn't matter, they are not safe to be pressurised warm and must always be kept carefully temperature controlled. I always did with mine - carbonating in a fridge with a Fridgemate, and putting straight into an icy esky for transport - and like I said, I didn't have any problems. But I should have had a disclaimer in my original post so: DISCLAIMER - That's my experience only, DO NOT take out your valve. Taking your warnings TB (and experiences with PET) into consideration and looking back, yes it does sound a bit dodgy and you have convinced me. I haven't used my party keg for a while, so I will get a proper valve for it before next use.

I have seen the pictures of the PET bottle aftermath and recommended others heed TB's advice and be very careful - you should always know the correct operation and limitations of your equipment and be sure to always use a regulated CO2 source for both force carbonating and dispensing, regardless of your or other people's experiences in the past.

And.. if you have the pressure sprayer that I linked to above, then take it back to Mitre 10 to be checked if it was the model with the exploding issue. :blink:

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

I blame Thirsty Boy for my collection of gas equipments and kegs and stuff.

The thing that got me into it was an occasion when we decided to force carbonate a couple of PET bottles of APA. TB brought around two sets of kit.

One was a regulated carbonating cap that he just sat down with (and a big glass of beer) and the bottles as I filled them pushing gas into them. By the time he'd finished his first glass or three, we had some carb'd beer and were happy.

The other was a gutted SodaStream machine that he demonstrated then left with me. I gassed up some bottles of beer with it over the next couple of weeks. It was hit and miss, and every time I used it I had a feeling of impending doom, particularly as it was responsible for breaking his glasses (and possibly that weird look he gets sometimes in his eye... )

I decided that I liked this caper, but only if it was using a regulated gas supply. I spent the extra money and can now gas things up and push them out with comparative safety.

One of my sprayer pressure relief valves died. I replaced it with a solid plug. I feel that I am ameliorating the risk by using regulated gas, but there is still a risk. I would not recommend that *you* do it.

Life is short enough without introducing risks you can easily avoid and this is one of the easier ones.

 

[winkle]

Inspired by Randy Rob's party bin, I knocked up this portakeg.
View attachment 17823
Asking for a bucket when arriving at a party was getting me some odd looks.

 

[pokolbinguy]

View attachment 17030


View attachment 17031

View attachment 17823

Two simple ideas... I like them. I was thinking about getting a bin (similar to the willow round plastic bins...you know what I mean) but with a flat top and adding some PVC pipe work to make a font... I saw a photo on the web somewhere and if I can find it I will post here.. thought it was cool to have a font so the lid can be used as a table top.

I need to buy some more taps for my party setup...they got recruited to my freerator so I could have 4 taps on it.

Cheers, Pok


EDIT: for some reason randyrobs pics didn't show up and I'm not sure how to re-edit to get them in here without deleting and starting again

 

[InCider]

Inspired by Randy Rob's party bin, I knocked up this portakeg.
View attachment 17823
Asking for a bucket when arriving at a party was getting me some odd looks.

Nice NSW Blues colour Winkle. All of us Wetback Cockroaches will be salivating! :lol:

Sassy rig. It's a 19l corny?

 

[winkle]

Hrump, didn't think of that - what type of paint will stick to this stuff
Yeah, 19l corny fits in snugly with enough room for some ice around the sides. I still need to add some foam matting insulation (better find some maroon coloured stuff) but the test run is Saturday. Bin came frome "Dollar & Sense" at Brookside $25 if anyone is interested.

 

[THE DRUNK ARAB]

Inspired by Randy Rob's party bin, I knocked up this portakeg.
View attachment 17823
Asking for a bucket when arriving at a party was getting me some odd looks.

winkle, not only a good party keg but a very good minature Dalek!

C&B
TDA

 

[Fents]

so how much beer line have you got between the keg and tap? no foaming im assuming? very nice setup.

edit (learnt from pat)- it needs wheels too

 

[winkle]

so how much beer line have you got between the keg and tap? no foaming im assuming? very nice setup.

edit (learnt from pat)- it needs wheels too

Just using the line from the existing fridge door tap 1-1.5m I think, worked ok. I'm stealing the pot plants wheels - it doesn't need to go anywhere.

 

[geoffi]

Reviving this thread for a quick update.

I now have four of the 8L Aqua sprayer kegs in constant rotation. Most of my brews get split between the keg and bottles, which works beautifully for me.

The kegs have worked very well, but a problem has developed. On three of them the valve at the bottom of the pump mechanism has started to leak. I discovered this when I found to my horror that several litres had somehow leaked out. After some investigation I nailed down the problem. Beer was leaking through the valve into the pump chamber, filling it up then spilling out. Arrrggghhh!!!

I have used some Araldite to glue the valves in place. A keg of Dortmunder has been priming happily for a week now with no leaks at all, so this seems to have solved the problem for now. The long-term solution is to get rid of the pump chamber altogether by using something like a disk of plastic or metal to seal the hole, as others have already done. I just need to find appropriate material.

 

[KHB]

I am setting up a party keg and have a question, firstly i have my garden sprayer in an esky with my line attached to a shank through the esky wall with a tap attached., now if i attach a line to my tap on my font and let it sit on the bottom of the garden sprayer and fill it this way once full putting lid on the sprayer and purging the oxygen with co2 can anyone see problems with that way and if so how does everyone else do it. Just wondering as i need to have the line attached to the tap shank to close the system off.

Cheers KHB

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Reviving this thread for a quick update.

I now have four of the 8L Aqua sprayer kegs in constant rotation. Most of my brews get split between the keg and bottles, which works beautifully for me.

The kegs have worked very well, but a problem has developed. On three of them the valve at the bottom of the pump mechanism has started to leak. I discovered this when I found to my horror that several litres had somehow leaked out. After some investigation I nailed down the problem. Beer was leaking through the valve into the pump chamber, filling it up then spilling out. Arrrggghhh!!!

I have used some Araldite to glue the valves in place. A keg of Dortmunder has been priming happily for a week now with no leaks at all, so this seems to have solved the problem for now. The long-term solution is to get rid of the pump chamber altogether by using something like a disk of plastic or metal to seal the hole, as others have already done. I just need to find appropriate material.

Geoffi - You might find some answers to your questions in the about 15 pages worth of guide I wrote to building and using these garden sprayer party kegs

You can find the info via the Articles Section - Serving/dispensing - Garden Sprayer party Kegs

or here is a direct link to the Forum post with the pdf guides.

You will find information about how to do exactly what you are talking about.

KHB - in the same place - the Guide to using the kegs - my explanation for how to counter pressure fill one of them sounds like it might be able to be adapted to do what you are talking about.

Cheers

Thirsty

 

[KHB]

thirsty

how about if i use the method on there but put the hose into the end of the tap on the esky to fill it that way??

worth a try??