Pale Ale With Honey Flavour

[ivodevo]

Hi All,

I would like to do a pale ale (similar to the Prickly Moses Pale I tried at the Fed Square Beer Expo last week). The brewer said that they use ale base malt with some melanoidin (5% I think he said) and I think he said crystal also. The beer had an amazing honey aroma and flavour - does this come from the Melanoidin? If not does anyone know how I can get this in my beer? I understand that we cannot get honey malt here in Australia.

I am thinking of doing a partial to get an OG of around 1.045,

3kg of Fawcett Golden Promise
0.15kg Melanoidin
0.15kg Fawcett light Crystal malt
1kg of golden dry malt extract

mash for an hour at around 67 degrees.

A combination of Cascade and Nelson Sauvin Hop flowers for an IBU of around 30, with plenty of late addition and dry hop.

Ferment with Safale US05 at around 18 degrees

Any thoughts on this recipe?

Thanks!

 

[Effect]

First two things that pop into my head is:

1) 67 degree mash? Are you sure you want to do that? I think 65 would be great for this recipe imo...but it really depends on what you want from your beer.

2) hops...calculate your bitterness backwards if you haven't already. Are you using beersmith? I would recommend adding your aroma and flavour additions first and then add your 60 min addition to balance out your beer. BU:GU atm is 0.67 which is fine imho...

Cheers

 

[ivodevo]

Thanks Phillip,

No real reason for the higher mash temp, other than I'd like to get a bit more mouthfeel. Although in saying that this is the first time I have done this recipe and I understand that Golden Promise leaves a bit more residual sweetness than other malts, so as you say it may be best to leave the mash at 65 for the first time around.

The main question I have is how I get the honey aroma/flavour? melanoidin or caramalt? and are my quantities with the melanoidin/crystal malts OK?

 

[tallie]

I've gotten significant honey notes out of Joe White Vienna malt in the past - anywhere between 25-40% of the malt bill. It may have just been the particular batch of grain I had, so YMMV.

The other thing to try is adding actual honey as part of your fermentables.

Cheers,
tallie

 

[ivodevo]

Thanks Tallie,

That sounds like a good idea, I'll give the vienna a go. I also heard that Carahell (10 L crystal malt) imparts a honey like flavour according to John Palmer:

http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter12-1.html

so now for the updated recipe:

1.2kg Bestmalz Vienna Malt
1.8kg Fawcett Golden Promise Ale Malt
0.2kg Bestmalz Melanoidin malt
0.25kg Weyermann Carahell

Mash at 65 degrees for one hour (BIAB)
Sparge dunk at 70 degrees for 10 minutes

10g Nelson Sauvin @ 60mins
20g Nelson Sauvin @ 20mins
20g Cascade @ 10mins
15g Cascade @ 5mins
20g Nelson Sauvin @ 2mins
15g Cascade @ Flameout

Dry-hop at day 4 of ferment with 40g of Sauvin and 40g of Cascade.

Ferment with US05

Ferment Vol: 22L
expected OG: 1.047 (based on 70% efficiency)
expected IBU: 33
Balance: 1.43 or 0.69 (depends which way you look at it)
ABV: 4.4%

Are there any opinions on the grain bill? good ratio of unfermentables to bitterness?

 

[pyrosx]

Are there any opinions on the grain bill? good ratio of unfermentables to bitterness?

No idea on the specifics of the grain bill.... but I know enough to point out that if you want honey flavours, aim low on the hops side of things.... high bitterness and late hops are going to stomp all over anything as subtle as honey flavours

 

[Where's Jim?]

If you're chasing melanoidins, it might be worth looking into an extended boil too. Maybe 90minutes or more - just repeating what I've heard on BrewStrong. No first hand experience here.

In fact, here's a link. It's a good listen and definitely informative as to what melanoidins are and how they form.
http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/Brew-St...-08-Melanoidins

 

[ivodevo]

Thanks Jim, that was pretty useful! Although they seem to take a long time to get to the point... And I can't get over the cheesy American jingles :huh:

Now I understand that Melanoidin malt does not impart honey flavour, but a toasty malty flavour. I took my recipe to Brendan at Grain and Grape and had him run a critique.

He said that Melanoidin malt is quite overpowering and recommended that I reduce the quantity. He also said that there is a fair amount of crystal in my recipe and sweet malts, so recommended to change the malt extract to pilsen light. 80g of dry hop is too much, so he recommended to cut it to half and put the other half in late hop additions.

So, I have now changed the recipe, as per below. I will brew on Sunday and will post again in a couple of months with the results for anyone that is interested.

1.2kg Bestmalz Vienna Malt
1.8kg Simpson Golden Promise Ale Malt
0.1kg Bestmalz Melanoidin malt
0.25kg Weyermann Carahell
1.0kg light pilsen dry malt extract

Mash at 65 degrees for one hour (BIAB)
Sparge dunk at 70 degrees for 10 minutes

10g Nelson Sauvin @ 60mins
20g Nelson Sauvin @ 20mins
20g Cascade @ 10mins
15g Cascade @ 5mins
20g Nelson Sauvin @ 2mins
15g Cascade @ 2 mins
15g Cascade @ Flameout
15g Sauvin @ Flameout

Dry-hop at day 4 of ferment with 25g of Sauvin and 25g of Cascade.

Ferment with US05

 

[ivodevo]

Thanks Jim, that was pretty useful! Although they seem to take a long time to get to the point... And I can't get over the cheesy American jingles :huh:

Now I understand that Melanoidin malt does not impart honey flavour, but a toasty malty flavour. I took my recipe to Brendan at Grain and Grape and had him run a critique.

He said that Melanoidin malt is quite overpowering and recommended that I reduce the quantity. He also said that there is a fair amount of crystal in my recipe and sweet malts, so recommended to change the malt extract to pilsen light. 80g of dry hop is too much, so he recommended to cut it to half and put the other half in late hop additions.

So, I have now changed the recipe, as per below. I will brew on Sunday and will post again in a couple of months with the results for anyone that is interested.

1.2kg Bestmalz Vienna Malt
1.8kg Simpson Golden Promise Ale Malt
0.1kg Bestmalz Melanoidin malt
0.25kg Weyermann Carahell
1.0kg light pilsen dry malt extract

Mash at 65 degrees for one hour (BIAB)
Sparge dunk at 70 degrees for 10 minutes

10g Nelson Sauvin @ 60mins
20g Nelson Sauvin @ 20mins
20g Cascade @ 10mins
15g Cascade @ 5mins
20g Nelson Sauvin @ 2mins
15g Cascade @ 2 mins
15g Cascade @ Flameout
15g Sauvin @ Flameout

Dry-hop at day 4 of ferment with 25g of Sauvin and 25g of Cascade.

Ferment with US05

 

[ivodevo]

Tasting at day 4:

Yes, it definitely has the honey aroma and smell, perfect amount of hop aroma and flavour also. Now I'm thinking the recipe may be ok without the dry hop addition, but I'll try it again in a few days before making that call.

 

[ivodevo]

I tried it now after a month or so in the bottle. The hop aroma and flavour is nice, not too overpowering but still good. I think it has lost some of the honey aroma/flavour, and could possibly have a little more sweetness (FG was around 1.007 I think). Also during the ferment the temperature crept up toward 22 - 23 degrees, although I was aiming at the 18 degree mark.

80g of dextrose for priming in a 20L batch has given a perfect amount of carbonation.

For next time I'll do the following:

- buy a ferment fridge to keep the temperature constant and to give more of a cleaner yeast profile.
- maybe bump up the OG by adding more fermentables, and possibly a higher mash temperature to get a higher final gravity and more sweetness/mouthfeel
- possibly substitute more vienna malt and less pilsner malt, and slightly more melanoidin to give a bit more maltyness.