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No Chill Hop Dilema

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Diggles

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Hi,
Just doing my first BIAB and the recipe asks for 30g Citra at 0 mins. I take it this is at flame out. But if I'm not going to chill the wort to fermentation temp (still waiting on aa pump) then how long before I should remove the hop bag? I plan to rack into aa cube and place in the fridge until tomorrow when I'll rack to the fermenter and add the yeas.

Diggles
 

manticle

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Chuck it in at whirlpool. If you find the results too bitter, adjust hop additions next time. Otherwise you'll spend a whole lot of time trying to second guess yourself.
 

Diggles

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Chuck it in at whirlpool. If you find the results too bitter, adjust hop additions next time. Otherwise you'll spend a whole lot of time trying to second guess yourself.

I take it you mean loose or in the hop bag? I'm using pellets.
 

manticle

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Removing the hop bag won't make a huge difference as far as I understand once the alpha acids are isomerised and dissolved into the wort, removal of the bag won't make a lot of difference.

Presumably, if in only for a short amount of time, maybe there'll be be un-isomerised aa that can be removed with the bag but I certainly have no idea how long that is.

What I'm really suggesting is that there is no point adjusting your recipe unless and until you know what you want to adjust it to, which only your palate and your knowledge of how your system operates is going to tell you.

Maybe the original recipe is designed around NC already?

By the time I whirlpool on my system, my wort is below 90 deg, by the time I cube it is around 80 deg. I don't use a hop bag. How much extra bitterness am I pulling out (definitely some as I have tried side by side) and how much do I want in my final beer? People give you numbers/ideas like 'calculate for an extra 20 minutes' etc, but it means nothing until you know what you are tasting and which way you want to adjust.

My perspective anyway. Brew as is, adjust for future if you think it warranted.
 

Diggles

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Removing the hop bag won't make a huge difference as far as I understand once the alpha acids are isomerised and dissolved into the wort, removal of the bag won't make a lot of difference.

Presumably, if in only for a short amount of time, maybe there'll be be un-isomerised aa that can be removed with the bag but I certainly have no idea how long that is.

What I'm really suggesting is that there is no point adjusting your recipe unless and until you know what you want to adjust it to, which only your palate and your knowledge of how your system operates is going to tell you.

Maybe the original recipe is designed around NC already?

By the time I whirlpool on my system, my wort is below 90 deg, by the time I cube it is around 80 deg. I don't use a hop bag. How much extra bitterness am I pulling out (definitely some as I have tried side by side) and how much do I want in my final beer? People give you numbers/ideas like 'calculate for an extra 20 minutes' etc, but it means nothing until you know what you are tasting and which way you want to adjust.

My perspective anyway. Brew as is, adjust for future if you think it warranted.

I think you're bang on the money, but it's my first brew in BIAB, so doing the learning curve thing. I think I'll go in light on the hops (put in) then take out after putting the pot on ice. Hopefully it won't be too much of a hop taste by my taste buds so that I have a drinkable beer. Thanks heaps.

Diggles
 

Lord Raja Goomba I

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What style is the recipe?

If an APA, maybe it needs the 0 min. If it's a bitter or another style reliant on earlier additions as opposed to late additions, you might be able to shuffle around hops additions.

I'm finding when I no chill, I'll do a moderate adjustment, so that my flameout (well into the cube/fermenter addition) is calculated as a 15 minute addition, and I nick 5 IBU from the 60 minute addition to balance out the no-chilling.

Sounds convoluted, but it isn't. For a 30 IBU Ale, I'll normally split it at 15IBU at 60 (or 30 dependent on style) and 15IBU at 10m. With a no-chilled ale, I'll push the 60 (or 30) addition down to 10, upping the flameout (treated as 15-20 minutes, depending on when I add) to 20 IBU.

It seems to be a good no-chill compromise for me.

Goomba
 

Diggles

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What style is the recipe?

If an APA, maybe it needs the 0 min. If it's a bitter or another style reliant on earlier additions as opposed to late additions, you might be able to shuffle around hops additions.

I'm finding when I no chill, I'll do a moderate adjustment, so that my flameout (well into the cube/fermenter addition) is calculated as a 15 minute addition, and I nick 5 IBU from the 60 minute addition to balance out the no-chilling.

Sounds convoluted, but it isn't. For a 30 IBU Ale, I'll normally split it at 15IBU at 60 (or 30 dependent on style) and 15IBU at 10m. With a no-chilled ale, I'll push the 60 (or 30) addition down to 10, upping the flameout (treated as 15-20 minutes, depending on when I add) to 20 IBU.

It seems to be a good no-chill compromise for me.

Goomba
It's an american IPA:
15g Citrus at 60mins
10 at 20 mins
10 at 10 mins and 30 at 0 mins

3.6 Pale ale malt
400g wheat
og 1.049, but I got 1.046

Mashed using 16L, then increased to 28L at the beginning of the boil at allow for evaporation, taarget was 20L, ended up with 22.5L.

Just remembered I forgot to increase the temp at the end of my mash for the mashout! Will it matter?

So, as a general rule with a no chill you loose the bitterness you added at the beginning of the boil, hence increasing the amount towards the end? Wouldn't this just add aroma? or am I way off the mark??

Diggles
 

sponge

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You don't lose any bitterness from the 60min addition with no chilling, and it will actually continue to increase in bitterness the longer the wort stays hot.

As for the late additions, they will also be hanging around in hot wort for a while and further increase the bitterness which is why a lot of people reduce the 60min addition and use larger late additions to compensate for the (depends who you ask) reduction in aroma/flavour and increase in bitterness.

Best way to deal with it, is to follow a given recipe, and adjust to your tastes and system for next time

I often cube hop a lot of my hops to help get the flavour and aroma that have been lacking in some of my previous effort.

Once again, different people and different systems will affect a beer, so go to your tasts and brew rig


Sponge
 

Lord Raja Goomba I

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What sponge said.

The nochilling increases the bitterness, and you lose some aroma on the later additions.

So what I do to compensate is tone down the 60m addition, and adjust up the 0 minute addition (essentially a 15-20 min addition, depending on whether I add it at flameout, or add it at cube time).

On an AIPA - you should be right to move all your 20/10/0 minute additions to 0 minutes no chill, and maybe knock off 5g of 60m and add it as a 0 min no chill addition.

That should balance it up.

If it were an APA - I'd say "suck it up, put it in the sink with some cold water and stir that baby". That's what I still do for my APA.

Goomba
 

Diggles

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Thank boys, I'll just have to calibrate my taste buds by the look of things!
 

bignath

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I think I'll go in light on the hops (put in) then take out after putting the pot on ice.
This indicates youre trying to chill your wort, rather than no chill?

Might need to read up a bit on the no chilling theory. The whole reason no chilling works is specifically ecause the temp that is retained in the cube and the duration its kept hot for helps to guard against infections in the cube. If your cubing but then chilling the cube 'on ice' or throwing in a pool or similar, then you run the risk of any nasties that may be in your cube turning into a big problem as they arent exposed to the high temps for as long.

Not guaranteed, but you certainly increase the risk. When i first started no chilling i used to throw it in the kiddy pool and had no problems. But i was informed of the risk of that method and now i just let it slowly cool down by itself overnight.

Its all about risk management.
 

Crusty

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It's an american IPA:
15g Citrus at 60mins
10 at 20 mins
10 at 10 mins and 30 at 0 mins

3.6 Pale ale malt
400g wheat
og 1.049, but I got 1.046

Mashed using 16L, then increased to 28L at the beginning of the boil at allow for evaporation, taarget was 20L, ended up with 22.5L.

Just remembered I forgot to increase the temp at the end of my mash for the mashout! Will it matter?

So, as a general rule with a no chill you loose the bitterness you added at the beginning of the boil, hence increasing the amount towards the end? Wouldn't this just add aroma? or am I way off the mark??

Diggles
Diggles,
I have purchased Beer Tools Pro & BeerSmith2 in the past & have now downloaded BrewMate ( free ) which is a great programme. It has the option of BIAB as well as no chill so seriously look at it. I plugged my original recipes in as I would for chilling & when ticking the no chill box in BrewMate, it shows the hops now being out of range & too bitter for style. I do something similar to LRG above, shave back the 60min addition to get it back to your original bitterness.
 

bum

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I plugged my original recipes in as I would for chilling & when ticking the no chill box in BrewMate, it shows the hops now being out of range & too bitter for style.
Did they taste that way?
 

Crusty

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Did they taste that way?
No.
The APA I just completed called for between 30-45IBU. When copying this recipe exactly to BrewMate & selecting no chill, the IBU was out of range so I shaved the 60min addition back & fell within range. The APA was 35IBU, really nice beer.
 

Diggles

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This indicates youre trying to chill your wort, rather than no chill?

Might need to read up a bit on the no chilling theory. The whole reason no chilling works is specifically ecause the temp that is retained in the cube and the duration its kept hot for helps to guard against infections in the cube. If your cubing but then chilling the cube 'on ice' or throwing in a pool or similar, then you run the risk of any nasties that may be in your cube turning into a big problem as they arent exposed to the high temps for as long.

Not guaranteed, but you certainly increase the risk. When i first started no chilling i used to throw it in the kiddy pool and had no problems. But i was informed of the risk of that method and now i just let it slowly cool down by itself overnight.

Its all about risk management.

Well I filled an esky with 2 packet of ice and water, with the aim of chilling thewort, but after about 10 min the water was hot and the wort at approx 70 degC! So I decided to cube it and chuck it in the fridge over night, pumped some CO2 a the cube is a 25L and the batch was 20L, so had quite a bit of head space. Normally I'm going to use a wort chiller, with the garden hose, then when the temp starets to level out, use a pump and ice water to finish off the chilling, as the water temp is 30 deg out of the tap here!

Didn't know about the infection info, so thanks heaps.


Diggles
 

Diggles

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No.
The APA I just completed called for between 30-45IBU. When copying this recipe exactly to BrewMate & selecting no chill, the IBU was out of range so I shaved the 60min addition back & fell within range. The APA was 35IBU, really nice beer.

Dude. you've just given me the light moment, I've been kind of struggling with Beersmith as it doesn't quite cater for BIAB. Will download Brewmate and give it a go. cheers.

Diggles
 

sponge

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You can very easily use 25L cubes for 20L batches (or increase batch size if possible) but you just need to squeeze the side of the cubes to remove that excess air pocket.

I'm pretty sure some people do that and haven't had a problem, but seeing as though I'm never sure when I'm going to ferment a brewskie, i like to make sure most/all of the air is out of the cube before putting on the lid.

Also, if you are going to use a cube as Nath said, I wouldn't be tempted to partly chill it first as the idea of cubing/no chilling is to have the hot wort in contact with cube for long enough to pasteurise it (after already thoroughly cleaning the cube first, of course), and chilling, then cubing, then chilling the cube in the fridge is definitely asking for a few nasties to survive in that cube and cause a bit of an infection.

Hope it all works out for you in the end none the less.


Sponge
 

felten

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Dude. you've just given me the light moment, I've been kind of struggling with Beersmith as it doesn't quite cater for BIAB. Will download Brewmate and give it a go. cheers.

Diggles
hmm I thought BS2 was designed specifically to be BIAB compatible.
 

JDW81

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hmm I thought BS2 was designed specifically to be BIAB compatible.
BS2 does have a BIAB option, but I've never used it as I've got a 3v system. There are also a few BIAB recipes in the program (DSGA being one).
 

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