No Bittering Addition

[Hashie]

There is a free source program called Qbrew. I am currently using it to do my brews and it seems to be working well.

It doesn't have all the profiles that promash and others have but the database is easily up-dated with whatever you want to put into it.

Best of all it's free. :super:

 

[tangent]

i've also found Amarillo to be EXCELLENT :super: for keg hopping.

 

[tangent]

Back OT, this was my 2nd to most recent APA
It's not all last minute hopping but it does lean heavily in that direction.

Hops
Variety Alpha Amount Form When
US Amarillo 8.4 10 g Pelletized Hops First Wort Hopped
US Amarillo 8.4 35 g Pelletized Hops All Of Boil
US Cascade 6.0 20 g Pelletized Hops 20 Min From End
US Cascade 6.0 20 g Pelletized Hops 10 Min From End
US Amarillo 8.4 20 g Pelletized Hops 5 Min From End
US Cascade 6.0 20 g Pelletized Hops At turn off
US Amarillo 8.4 10 g Pelletized Hops At turn off
US Cascade 6.0 10 g Pelletized Hops Dry-Hopped
US Amarillo 8.4 10 g Pelletized Hops Dry-Hopped
US Amarillo 8.4 4 g Pelletized Hops Keg-Hopped

It has some hop character

 

[razz]

Back OT, this was my 2nd to most recent APA
It's not all last minute hopping but it does lean heavily in that direction.

Hops
Variety Alpha Amount Form When
US Amarillo 8.4 10 g Pelletized Hops First Wort Hopped
US Amarillo 8.4 35 g Pelletized Hops All Of Boil
US Cascade 6.0 20 g Pelletized Hops 20 Min From End
US Cascade 6.0 20 g Pelletized Hops 10 Min From End
US Amarillo 8.4 20 g Pelletized Hops 5 Min From End
US Cascade 6.0 20 g Pelletized Hops At turn off
US Amarillo 8.4 10 g Pelletized Hops At turn off
US Cascade 6.0 10 g Pelletized Hops Dry-Hopped
US Amarillo 8.4 10 g Pelletized Hops Dry-Hopped
US Amarillo 8.4 4 g Pelletized Hops Keg-Hopped

It has some hop character

And perhaps a hop name. Cascarillo APA anyone ?

 

[Darren]

I think the "no bittering addition" protocol is well suited with APA style beers. I doubt it would work in a Boh. pils or an English pale ale though.

cheers

darren

 

[wraith]

Thanks everyone for the helpful posts, I am still doing 90min boils even with the late only additions, I ended doing 4 additions of 50g at 20 to go, 5 to go, flameout and dry, 200g total of amarillo (33.42IBU), Should hopefully get some good flavour & aroma.

I am taking this same method to my next brew, a bo pils, Ive done one before and the flavour and aroma was disapointing, next one roughly what im looking at doing is 450g of saaz plugs, first addition at 20 to go and still hitting 40IBU due to the sheer volume of hops, dont want to take any chances this time, is there any problems doing this?

While I am here, there is a lot of conflicting info on the best mash temp of a bo pils, my other improvement to this batch is all german (weyermann) malt (last one was JWM).
Im doing 90% bo pils, 5% vienna, 5% carapils, only single infusion, DGB says 67c though Ive read people on here talk about lager mash temps as low as 62-63, im still tossing up the exact temp and am not quite sure what is the best, am thinking 65c atm, somewhere in between.

Wraith

 

[neonmeate]

roughly what im looking at doing is 450g of saaz plugs, first addition at 20 to go and still hitting 40IBU due to the sheer volume of hops, dont want to take any chances this time, is there any problems doing this?

this sounds really cool, i will be interested to hear how this goes, whether it turns out grassy or anything. and to hear whether you actually get any wort out of the brewpot. i love a good saazy pilsener.

give it a good long rolling boil first before you add the hops though, you want to get rid of as much DMS as possible. (and i don't know if you no-chill but i would give some thought to using the old chiller again with a beer like this). and a good long lagering period.

 

[wraith]

neonmeate, grassiness will be my main concern, though I am not dry hopping or anything so hoping it'll be ok, if anything with some extended lagering. I'll still do my standard 90 min boil, and I use an immersion chiller, though its not that flash, gets it down to 40c, I transfer to fermenter, place in fermenting fridge and pitch next day.

Wraith

 

[neonmeate]

i think you've inspired me to try something like this myself next... unfortunately the belgienbiergebot prohibits me from making anything that isn't belgian, so i will make a westvleteren blond-type beer (hoppy enkel) out of a similar wort. perhaps with 450g styrian plugs instead!

 

[Malnourished]

I really like the idea of this whole hopburst caper, but I've never tried it.

One potential drawback is reduced head retention. From the BJCP Study Guide:

Boiling for less than one hour... the head may not be as well formed due to improper extraction of isohumulones from the hops. A good rolling boil for one hour is necessary to bind hop compounds to polypeptides, forming colloids that remain in the beer and help form a good stable head.

Of course the extent to which this has an effect isn't made explicit (though I guess quantifying such a thing would be pretty difficult.)

So has anybody noticed any difference in head retention or things like haze (or lack thereof)? Frankly it strikes me as the kind of thing which would have a minimal effect, but obviously I have no experience. I'd be keen to hear of others' experiences.

 

[Stuster]

When I've done this, I've still boiled for the same time as normal, just not adding any hops till the 15/20/30 minute mark. In fact, I've usually done this with FWHing as well, so there are hops in the boil from the start. Makes the majority of the boil a pretty simple process. But no loss of head that I've noticed. Some haze perhaps, but that's more green haze.

Sounds like an interesting experiment, wraith. I guess I've really only used this technique with American hops and for APAs. Time to experiment. :chug:

unfortunately the belgienbiergebot prohibits me from making anything that isn't belgian

:lol:

 

[wraith]

Today is brew day, my experimental hopburst bo pils, calling it 'Anzac Pils' its :

90% Weyermann Bo Pils
5% Weyermann Carapils
5% Weyermann Vienna

Single infusion @ 64c

Wyeast 2278 Czech Pils

And the experimental part:
513g saaz hops!

60g 3.4% pellets @ 35 min
102g 2.2% plugs @ 25 min
102g 2.2% plugs @ 15 min
102g 2.2% plugs @ 05 min
147g 2.2% plugs @ Steep

Estimated OG is 1.045
40.18 IBU

I even bought spring water for this one to have the water as soft as possible


Wraith

 

[goatherder]

Sounds awesome Wraith.

 

[Trent]

Ive only tried this once, with a regular length boil, and my first addition at 15 mins, then 5 mins, and flameout.
Tasted great, and took first place in the NSW 2006 comp, and 3rd place in the nats.
Great way to get heaps of hop flavour and aroma into your beers. Better to be high A/A but
All the best
Trent

 

[jjeffrey]

The haze you get from shorter boils is mainly the result of unremoved protein complexes with high proportions of proline (an amino acid) , which are linked together with polyphenols (tannins). You tend to get the former with all malts (proline is the only amino acid the yeast don't take up), but especially with well modified malts. The latter you get from an over-extracted mash or from hops.

The more hops you use, the more polyphenols you have in your beer. Regarding haze and boil time, it's a balancing act, because you need to get rid of as much protein as possible in the form of hot break (ie- longer=better), but if you use a shit-load of hops a longer boil will increase your polyphenol extraction.

I would say that if you want to go sick with the hops, shorter is better, but only as long as you have an under modified (or well kilned) malt. 60 minutes is a conveinient time for a boil, cause it gets rid of most of the proteins, allows a good hop utilisation and gets rid of most of your DMS. If you are using shit-loads of hops (for whatever reason), the best way is to boil for 60mins (or more- I go for 90) but late hop.

Boiling longer also reduces your DMS, but that is really only an issue if you are using lots of pilsner malt. You really want at least 60 minutes in this case (once again, I go 90 as a rule).

The whole issue about bittering ealier is simply one of economics: the longer you boil, the better your iso-alpha acid conversion, hence more bitter for less hops. This is relivant to commecial breweries, but not to the AHB because the scale is not there.

Forming hot break before you add hops doesn't improve your bittering efficieny- the iso-alpha acids will cling to any proteins as soon as they form in the boil, coagulated or not.

I say, boil gently, unless you either have undermodified malt (aka lots of DMS) or want to drive off water (then boil hard). Boil for more than 60 minutes always. Late hop without a starting addition if you are hopping mad. If you are going to do this, make sure your 30 minute addition is a good one.

Oops. sorry. I crap on way too much.

JJ.

 

[drsmurto]

Today is brew day, my experimental hopburst bo pils, calling it 'Anzac Pils' its :

90% Weyermann Bo Pils
5% Weyermann Carapils
5% Weyermann Vienna

<snip>

60g 3.4% pellets @ 35 min
102g 2.2% plugs @ 25 min
102g 2.2% plugs @ 15 min
102g 2.2% plugs @ 05 min
147g 2.2% plugs @ Steep

Estimated OG is 1.045
40.18 IBU

Wraith

Was doing a search for late addition bittering with the thought in the back of my mind of making a Knappstein-ish pils. The AA for the Nelson Sauvin hop is 13% so thought i would add the hops from 30 mins onwards.

Was hoping you could report back on the result of this experiment? Anyone else used Nelson sauvin in this way?

I was thinking a pilsner along these lines

95% wey pils
5% melanoidin
20g NS @ 30, 15, 5 for 37IBUs

Cheers
DrSmurto

 

[oldbugman]

take a look at ross' nelson sauvin summer ale in the recipe section.

 

[Stuster]

Dr Smurto, I've done an all NS summer ale, with NS added as FWH and then additions at 15, FO and dry. Turned out nicely I think. I've also done a NS beer with Cascade which worked well (small 60 addition then all late) and I recently bottled a NS and Saaz which I'm still waiting for. No reason I can see for not adding all the hops late with this beer. Your schedule looks good. I'd just say, doing a light coloured beer like that is the time to think about water chemistry IMO.

 

[drsmurto]

Funnily enough, water chemistry is sort of what i do.....

Analysing my rainwater this week

Already analysed Adelaide tap water so will be able to compare by the end of the week. Surprisingly, Adelaide tap water isnt as hard as i was led to believe.

 

[Stuster]

Ah, teaching my grandmother to suck eggs again. Maybe you could post your results up here for the Adelaide brewers (if you haven't already). Anyway, recipe looks good to me.