Nice vs harsh bitterness

[bcp]

I've had pale ales, IPAs and even IPAs with delightful bitterness.

Then occasionally I taste a pale or IPA that is just... harsh. It's like... ear wax or old-fashioned floor polish or something. Unpleasant. This thread depends on people guessing what I mean.

I don't have a trained palate like many of you, so I'd like to understand what I'm tasting, what's causing this difference. My guesses are:
* Lack of malt balance? That's an obvious one, but I'm not sure that's the full story.
* Higher levels of certain types of alpha acids? In my own brewing I tend to use more lower alpha hops, and they seem to bring more complexity, more going on than just bitter. Obviously some of the American hops are good examples, with the various citrous flavours coming through.
* Water chemistry? Too much sodium or sulphate?

 

[Mardoo]

Huge topic. I look forward to the coming discussion.

 

[cremmerson]

I'm with you on the sidelines, Mardoo.

 

[QldKev]

There's many causes, off the top of my head

Astringency.
Some hops are bad for being harsh. NS and Citra can be really harsh
Water chem, too much Chloride is a big one, but even too much Sulphate can become sharp which could be perceived as harshness.
I find leaving too much break material from the kettle causes a harsh bitterness and strips hop aroma.

Plenty more ideas will follow

 

[Bribie G]

A 90 minute boil often smooths out the bitterness.

 

[treefiddy]

astringency
some hops are bad for this. NS and Citra can be really harsh

Do you think this is caused by tannins in the hops? Some varieties are perhaps worse higher in tannins?
Pair that with a high pH boil and I guess you're asking for it (extraction).

Edit: clarity

 

[bcp]

A 90 minute boil often smooths out the bitterness.

Just to clarify - I'm talking about commercial brews, not my own brewing.

 

[dmac80]

Tried the Bridge Road Single hop Galaxy or Stella?

They were a bit harsh...

 

[QldKev]

Do you think this is caused by tannins in the hops? Some varieties are perhaps worse higher in tannins?
Pair that with a high pH boil and I guess you're asking for it (extraction).

Edit: clarity

They were 2 separate points.
Astringency.
Some hops are bad for being harsh. NS and Citra can be really harsh
I'll edit the post to clarify


I'm not sure exactly what compound in the hop it is from, but I find a lot of the newer high AA% hops to be harsher. Make a English bitter with EKG for bittering and you will fall in love with it, then try it with a really high AA% hop and it's no where near the same.

The pH in mash and also boil are also factors that can play havoc.

 

[hoppy2B]

My honest opinion is that its just too high an IBU. Lower your IBU and it won't seem as bitter.

 

[mikec]

I get where you're coming from bcp.
Overly bitter without the malt profile or enough hop flavour to back it up.
I have also found that over time, you develop a tolerance to the bitterness, and now I am liking bigger and more bitterer (yes that is a word, now) beers.

 

[Bribie G]

I drink very few Australian craft beers, much prefer my own. When I'm at Dans I go for Eastern Euro beers or the more complex German beers such as DAB, predominantly.

 

[bum]

Some of the things mentioned so far (and I strongly suspect the same of things to come) will make "roughness" better or worse (depending on the intention of the advice) regardless of ingredients used.

For me it all comes down to hop variety. Some just exhibit rougher bitterness.

Look at Amarillo versus Columbus, for example. Columbus is much smoother to the same IBU despite a significant difference in AA%. Or Galaxy versus Magnum - comparable AA% but Galaxy is rough as guts to my palate, but I could bitter a beer through the roof with Magnum.

Having said all that - I'm sure the science on this is well known to those who know it. It's not witchcraft, I am sure.

 

[Adr_0]

Over-doing low AA hops can bring in a harsh bitterness too.

I actually thought the Beta Acid % was a good indicator of harshness, particularly the ratio to alpha acid. A few examples (pick which one I think is a harsh bittering hop vs smooth...)
German Magnum --> Alpha/Beta ratio 2.2-3.5
Simcoe -> Alpha/Beta ratio 2.4-3.5
PoR -> Alpha/beta ratio 1.3-1.9

I haven't used Galaxy so I can't really comment. I guess a high Alpha/Beta ratio means that beta acids are comparatively lower?

 

[vonromanz]

Old, oxidised, hops can do it. Although beta acids in fresh hops doesn't give bitterness in the boil, oxidise them and it will lend a harsh bitterness. Untreated water high in alkalinity used for pale beers, like lagers, will do it.

 

[browndog]

An unbalanced beer can accentuate bitterness as will high carbonation. Simcoe and Magnum are really smooth bittering hops. Graeme's Chinese hops gave a real ascorbic acid type of bittering.

 

[Adr_0]

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Hop_chemistry#Beta_acids

Some extra info.

Balance is a definite one. I am having second thoughts about brewing my 5% ABV pale wheat beer with 80IBU of PoR and Galaxy...

 

[manticle]

@Hoppy: Yes it might be less bitter if there's less bittering units. How do you know the IBU is too high if you don't know what beers he has tasted?

There is a difference in a beer of 40 IBU that's bittered with hallertauer mittelfruh or tettnanger and a beer that's bittered to the same measured level using galaxy or chinook.

BCP: it can be a combo of things. Cohumulone levels are one thing that has often been pointed to as a contributor to harsh bitterness. Co humolone levels were, until recently associated with high aa hops (as cohumulone is an alpha acid and more readily soluble than the others) and lower levels have been associated with noble hops (renowned for offering soft, smooth bittering). Nowadays many of the high aa hops have low cohumulone levels.

Late hopping can, according to Fix,lead to undesirable compounds, even in nobles due to the limited contact with hot wort (supporting the earlier assertion that longer boils may reduce harshness). Could it be heavily late hopped with new world hop type beers you're getting it in - 10 minute IPAs and such?

There are many compounds in hops, some of which contribute bitterness. IBU is a measurement solely of isomerised alpha acid in solution. Chew on a hop pellet or soak one in cold water - the alpha acids have not isomerised and will not have dissolved but you will still taste bitterness. One of these could be contributing to what you are tasting. High levels of mercene (an essential oil) add pungent, resiny, piney type characters whereas humulene is considered elegant.

Could be recipe balance as you say. Hop chemistry is not completely understood so there may be other factors. Wort pH plays a part (too high can contribute unpleasant characteristics).

Could also relate to malt - astringency from polyphenols/grain husks for example. Is it a feeling you get on the sides of the front of the tongue like sucking a wet tea bag?

Quality of bittering and flavouring has been associated with alpha: beta ratio but the book I read this in (Fix again) suggests that research is lacking into this correlation. That's late 90s so maybe that gap has been filled.

Not sure what exactly you're tasting but have had beers with both harsh bitterness and astringency before and there is a difference. Hopefully the above gives you some starting points.

 

[beerdrinkingbob]

A good rule is the higher the Co-Humulone the harsher the bitterness, the best bittering hops are low in Co-Humulone. Some good examples are warrior around 24% and magnum, one of the worst is Galaxy 35% :huh:

Edit, please excuse the speedy type font!!

 

[beerdrinkingbob]

The AA% is a moot point IMO