Morgan's Caramalt Amber Lme

[axertes]

So I wanted to step up to all malt extract and hops beer. There's a thread here where some people helped me develop a recipe for an Aussie-fied APA.

The recipe called for:
3kg amber LME
1.5kg pale LME

for a 25L brew. According to BrewMate this should have an OG of 1.055 and a colour of 8.0 SRM.

So I go to my lhbs and he only has Morgan's LME. I see the 'Lager Pale' and the 'Caramalt Amber'. I'm a little confused about the 'caramalt' labelling and ask the guy if this is 'normal amber LME?'. He says yes. So I buy 2 'Caramalt Amber' and one 'Lager Pale'.

So... a mate and I started the brew today. Boiled those 3 cans, got the wort in the fermenter and... well. It's darker than Kilkenny and has an OG of 1082 (at 40 degrees, mind you, so more like 1078 really). So, I'm now brewing a f&*^%ing galaxy hopped pseudo-quadrupel. <_<

So, is this Morgan's 'Caramalt Amber' some super-duper malty-malt, and my LHBS guy is a douchecopter? Or have I made some mistake? Happy to post any more details from brewmate or my methods if required.

Thanks in advance folks.

 

[manticle]

Did you discard the first sample and take a second to confirm the reading? Could be malt stuck in the tap (without running specs through a spreadsheet). If the yeast hasn't been in long, I would take another reading.

What's the full recipe?

I would expect 2:1 ratio of amber: pale extract to have a fair bit of colour.

 

[MHB]

Unless you give the volume you made the wort up to and any losses in your process there is no way of telling what the OG is going to be. If we assume you made it up to 23 L and all the LME went into the fermenter your OG would be 1.063 and the colour would be about 50 EBC, you can think of those as Maximum values for these ingredients in a 23 L brew.

There are several different "Amber Malt Extracts" available, had you chosen the Blackrock Amber your colour would have been (same provisions as previous) ~40 EBC, for the Briess Sparkling Amber ~ 48 EBC. Way over the ~16 EBC you were looking for,

Following the link back to the recipe, there is clearly something wrong with the Colour assumptions, either a very wrong value is in for the amber malt or something is set up wrong in BrewMate.

MHB



douchecopter indeed

 

[Punkal]

Hmmm, It sounds like the Caramalt Amber you got was a lot darker and probably had a higher concentration of sugar in it. It still sounds like it will turn out ok just not what you were after...

 

[axertes]

Unless you give the volume you made the wort up to and any losses in your process there is no way of telling what the OG is going to be. If we assume you made it up to 23 L and all the LME went into the fermenter your OG would be 1.063 and the colour would be about 50 EBC, you can think of those as Maximum values for these ingredients in a 23 L brew.

25 litres. What do you mean by 'any losses in your process'? A little bit of malt got 'toffeed' at the bottom of the pot. About 3.5L of water got boiled off, but we added that back into the fermenter in the way of more boiled water. (Disclaimer: this is the first time I've done a 60 min boil. Didn't think 3.5L would be vapourised!).

There are several different "Amber Malt Extracts" available, had you chosen the Blackrock Amber your colour would have been (same provisions as previous) ~40 EBC, for the Briess Sparkling Amber ~ 48 EBC. Way over the ~16 EBC you were looking for,

Can you give some examples of the kind of amber malts and their values compared to those BrewMate provides? It says Amber LME is: Potential extract = 1.036, Colour = 9. I don't know what these values mean.

Following the link back to the recipe, there is clearly something wrong with the Colour assumptions, either a very wrong value is in for the amber malt or something is set up wrong in BrewMate.

Well, Brewmate's pretty well on 'default'. I'm guessing the former.

douchecopter indeed

Well now I'm not quite so sure. I mean, if the Blackrock and the Briess would have produced similar colour... maybe BrewMate's definition of 'Amber LME' is a bit different to what you get here in Ausfailia, and I should have done more homework. What do you think?

The proper reciper for BrewMate users (in *.xml) is here. EDIT: you can attach files on this forum too! Get the BrewMate xml wherever pleases you: the attached one or the Mediafire upload.

View attachment Punkal__s_Seppo_Ale.xml

 

[axertes]

Hmmm, It sounds like the Caramalt Amber you got was a lot darker and probably had a higher concentration of sugar in it.

That's my best guess.

It still sounds like it will turn out ok just not what you were after...

I'm not sure. I mean... given my OG, I'm most likely looking at around the 9-10%ABV mark. With the crazy amount of maltiness, that makes it a bit like a Quadrupel, but hopped with Cascade and Galaxy. I've never brewed scrumpy that strong, let alone an ale.

Then again, I could be onto something... :blink: Murray's Grand Cru is like an 'Aussie Belgian', and is one of my favourite beers :icon_drool2:

 

[axertes]

Did you discard the first sample and take a second to confirm the reading? Could be malt stuck in the tap (without running specs through a spreadsheet). If the yeast hasn't been in long, I would take another reading.

Yeah, tried again a few minutes ago. The OG's dropped by a few points, but it's now about 15 degrees cooler too...

What's the full recipe?

If you use BrewMate you can DL the recipe in a previous post.

I would expect 2:1 ratio of amber: pale extract to have a fair bit of colour.

Yeah... but... grrr! Again, is BrewMate being the problem here?

................................................................................
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Thank you guys so much. Me and my brewing partner were pretty bummed about this. Let's hope Punkal's right and it's awesome despite not being what we planned! :icon_chickcheers:

 

[manticle]

In regards to the colour - there are different scales in use. The spreadsheet I use for recipe development has liquid amber listed at around 16 deg. Lovibond is approximately equal to half the same value in SRM or EBC.

The same spreadsheet also uses HCU which seems like a slightly awkward and inaccurate way to calculate the final beer colour based on the lovibond values of the ingredients divided by the final volume.

It could be your brewmate values are not set in the scale you want them to be.

No idea why you've hit 1080 - with just those ingredients (assuming the tins are 1.5kg each), made to 25 L, I get 1056. I don't think 1 tin of liquid malt extract is going to have 'more sugar' than another of the same weight. Usually liquid malts are 20% water and the rest barley malt (unless specified otherwise).

If you want a decent tasting brew at that gravity, you'll need a very healthy yeast pitch and you'll want to keep ferment temps low in the first few days.

I don't have brewmate so I can't download the recipe. Be a helpful chap/lass and post it for us would you?

 

[axertes]

In regards to the colour - there are different scales in use. The spreadsheet I use for recipe development has liquid amber listed at around 16 deg. Lovibond is approximately equal to half the same value in SRM or EBC.

The same spreadsheet also uses HCU which seems like a slightly awkward and inaccurate way to calculate the final beer colour based on the lovibond values of the ingredients divided by the final volume.

It could be your brewmate values are not set in the scale you want them to be.

Meh, I don't care nearly as much what colour it is. Now that some of the cloudy sediment has dropped it's a lovely red colour :icon_cheers:

No idea why you've hit 1080 - with just those ingredients (assuming the tins are 1.5kg each), made to 25 L, I get 1056. I don't think 1 tin of liquid malt extract is going to have 'more sugar' than another of the same weight. Usually liquid malts are 20% water and the rest barley malt (unless specified otherwise).

Exactly my thoughts! Ok, well maybe my LHBS guy isn't such a twat after all. Or maybe he still is? We will get to the bottom of this!

If you want a decent tasting brew at that gravity, you'll need a very healthy yeast pitch and you'll want to keep ferment temps low in the first few days.

Wyeast 1056. Comes from Craftbrewer, has lived in the (food) fridge at home for only a week, so I'm pretty confident it's healthy. I have a fermenting fridge with TempMate so temps aren't an issue. I was gonna pitch this morning at 19*c, should I go cooler?

I don't have brewmate so I can't download the recipe. Be a helpful chap/lass and post it for us would you?

Alright, alright. I was trying to do it the lazy way

Punkal's Seppo Ale
(Aussie-fied) American Pale Ale

Recipe Specs
Original Gravity: 1.055
Final Gravity: 1.014
Colour (SRM / EBC): 8.0/15.8
Bitterness: 44.4IBU
Alcohol by Volume: 5.3%
Batch Size: 25L

Fermentables
LME - Amber
SRM: 9.0
Percentage: 66.67%
Amount: 3kg

LME - Light
SRM: 5.0
Percentage: 33.33%
Amount: 1.5kg

Hops
Cascade (Pellets, USA, AA6.8%): 20g@60min
Galaxy (Pellets, Aus, AA13.4%): 10g@60min
Cascade: 10g@30min
Galaxy: 10g@30min
Cascade: 10g@0min
Galaxy: 20g@0min

 

[manticle]

Healthy yeast is one thing but you also need the right amount. If you have a second pack (is it the dried 1056 from craftbrewer?) I'd pitch both presuming your gravity readings are correct. You have calibrated your hydrometer to make sure it's reading correctly?

I'd pitch a bit lower - a couple of degrees lower than you aim to ferment.

 

[MHB]

4.5 Kg of LME at ~80% Solids is 3.6 Kg

Dissolve 3.6 Kg in 25 L of water and you get 3.6/25 X 100 = 14.4 ^oP

From SG = (^oP X 4)/1000 +1 = (14.4*4)/1000 + 1 = 1.0576 SG (or 1.0626 in 23 L)

There is no way to get any other answers; to read 1.082 or 1.078 corrected means you have made a mistake in your measurement.

Likewise for the colour, the ingredients you used make a beer much darker than your recipe indicates (~50 EBC) the colour value for Amber Malt should read more than 8 (wash my mouth out) SRM/L^o or 16 EBC. You get that from one 1.5 KG can, you added two and the colour from the light LME adds on as well.

Your home brew retailer sold you exactly what you asked for, so it's not his fault.

MHB

 

[axertes]

Healthy yeast is one thing but you also need the right amount. If you have a second pack (is it the dried 1056 from craftbrewer?) I'd pitch both presuming your gravity readings are correct. You have calibrated your hydrometer to make sure it's reading correctly?

I'd pitch a bit lower - a couple of degrees lower than you aim to ferment.

Checked the hydrometer in water. Bang on 1000.

Yeah the dried 1056 from Craftbrewer. So that's 12g each (x2=24g for two packets). I really want this much? Not doubting you, just checking. lol, another $4.25 worth of yeast. This is turning out to be an expensive screwup

Ok, turned the tempmate down to 17*c (was intending to ferment at 18.5*c). Should be ready in a little bit (crappy old free fridge. Got a couple of inches of water in the floods up here so I'm watching carefully to make sure it doesnt burn the house down :unsure: ).

 

[manticle]

I'm with MHB on this one though. I can't for the life of me see how your reading of 1080 can be accurate with those ingredients.

I'd pitch 2 packs into a 1080 brew but 1056 (my calculated OG, not the yeast) I'd use only the one.

I'll leave it to you.

 

[axertes]

4.5 Kg of LME at ~80% Solids is 3.6 Kg

Dissolve 3.6 Kg in 25 L of water and you get 3.6/25 X 100 = 14.4 ^oP

From SG = (^oP X 4)/1000 +1 = (14.4*4)/1000 + 1 = 1.0576 SG (or 1.0626 in 23 L)

This is a little bit over my head, but I trust your calculations!

There is no way to get any other answers; to read 1.082 or 1.078 corrected means you have made a mistake in your measurement.

Just double-checked everything. It was indeed 4.5kg of LME (kept the labels for reference), and there's definitely 25L in my fermenter. I've measured the wort with the hydrometer 3 times now, and it reads the same each time (compensating for temp). Can you think of any other mistakes I could have made?

Likewise for the colour, the ingredients you used make a beer much darker than your recipe indicates (~50 EBC) the colour value for Amber Malt should read more than 8 (wash my mouth out) SRM/L^o or 16 EBC. You get that from one 1.5 KG can, you added two and the colour from the light LME adds on as well.

Fair enough. Didn't realise that SRM was a dirty word. I solemnly swear to only use only EBC from now on :unsure: .

Your home brew retailer sold you exactly what you asked for, so it's not his fault.

Well that's good to know. It would be nice to blame someone else though haha.

Let's blame BrewMate instead! Well, maybe be a bit more constructive...

Any BrewMate users know how to go about getting the right values for the LMEs used? I can edit the 'potential extract' (whatever that means) and the colour. How do I find out those values for particular LMEs?

Found this here:

Master Blends: (1 KG Specialty Blends) (Now replaced by 1.5kg tins due to supply/cost problems with further 1kg containers)
Beer Enhancer (2-row Pale extract, Glucose, and Honey; 1.2 EBC)
Lager Malt (100% 2-row Lager malt; 2.4 EBC)
Caramalt (60% Caramalt and 40% Pale malt; 12 EBC)
Dark Crystal Malt (60% Dark Crystal and 40% Vienna malt; 38.4 EBC)
Wheat Malt (60% Wheat and 40% Pilsner malt; 3.2 EBC)
Chocolate Malt (15% Chocolate and 85% Munich malt; 21.6 EBC)
Roasted Black Malt (12% Roasted Black malt and 88% Munich malt; 50.8 EBC)

Morgans Masterblend extracts only 50% fermentable; Malt Extracts 75%

http://www.morgansbrewing.com.au/assets/up...rewersNews4.pdf
http://www.aussiebrewmakers.com.au/view/page/34/news/9.html

So according to that the 'Caramalt Amber' is 12EBC, Brewmate's Calculating it at 17.7%EBC; and 'Lager Pale' is 2.4EBC, BrewMate's calculating it at 9.9EBC. So there shoul dbe less colour than Brewmate's calculating <_<

I'm confused.

 

[axertes]

I'm ringing my brew partner, I'll get his hydrometer. Might as well check all possible mistakes, huh?

EDIT: just rang him. Going over there to get his hydrometer. I'll ride my bicycle to burn off some of the copious amounts of Coopers I drank last night, or the copious amounts of Kilkenny I plan to drink this afternoon at the pub! . Back in half an hour to 45 mins folks!

 

[axertes]

I'm with MHB on this one though. I can't for the life of me see how your reading of 1080 can be accurate with those ingredients.

I KNOW!!!!!!! AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!

I'd pitch 2 packs into a 1080 brew but 1056 (my calculated OG, not the yeast) I'd use only the one.

I'll leave it to you.

Gotcha, makes sense now. Will do.

 

[felten]

Your hydro should read 1.000 in tap water if it's accurate

 

[axertes]

Your hydro should read 1.000 in tap water if it's accurate

Yeah it does. Grabbed my mate's hydrometer. Same reading.

The mystery continues...

EDIT: I guess I'm pitching two packets of yeast and brewing my 'pseudo-quadrupel' then.

I'd still like to solve the problem though.

 

[RdeVjun]

Probably a long shot here, but what are you using to determine the 25L, the fermenter graduations? If so, never trust them...

 

[goomboogo]

I agree with the gravity estimates put forward by the Brewmate software, MHB and Manticle.

Looking at the recipe and the contents of the Amber extract in the quote you have from the manufacturer, I think there may be issues with the beer other than the starting gravity. The 12 ebc extract lists the ingredients as 60% Caramalt and 40% Pale Malt. So that means, of the 4.5 kg of extract, 1.8 kg is Caramalt (i.e 60% of the 3 kg of Amber extract). This equates to 40% of your malt being Caramalt. That is a large proportion of crystal malt to have in a beer. Brewmate's estimate of 1014 on the finishing gravity is probably based on an Amber extract with a composition different to the one you've got. If you're extract really is made with 60% Caramalt then don't expect to get a finishing gravity as low as 1014.

Did you tell your LHBS guy what you were intending to do with the 3 kg of this particular Amber extract? With respect to the beer being darker than anticipated, did you check the best before date on the tins? Liquid extract does tend to darken as it ages.