More Thoughts On Yeast

[hoohaaman]

I purchased an out of date wy2206 and stored in fridge for a further 6 months.Oh it was gluten free.

Couple of weeks ago smacked it,it took over a week to start any swelling.Not unusual for older yeast especially lager,I thought.

Left it alone to do it's thing for a few days,opened it to make starter and innoculate slants only to be greeted with a vegemite smelling dark mess.I guessed autolysis.

I have never had a smack pack which eventually with some TLC,didn't offer the goods.So was pretty surprised with what I experienced.

Not complaining about reseller ect.more interested in what happened

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I purchased an out of date wy2206 and stored in fridge for a further 6 months.Oh it was gluten free.

Couple of weeks ago smacked it,it took over a week to start any swelling.Not unusual for older yeast especially lager,I thought.

Left it alone to do it's thing for a few days,opened it to make starter and innoculate slants only to be greeted with a vegemite smelling dark mess.I guessed autolysis.

I have never had a smack pack which eventually with some TLC,didn't offer the goods.So was pretty surprised with what I experienced.

Not complaining about reseller ect.more interested in what happened

The two packs of 2206 I have bought both looked and smelled a bit funny when I opened them and one of those packs was reasonably fresh (the other about the same as yours) So I think that that particular yeast is just a bit odd. still, sound like your pack was mostly buggered.

If you got it to swell - there must be some live yeast in there, but obviously there is a bunch of dead autolysed yeast as well - I reckon you'd make a 1L starter with it, then "wash" the starter as though it was harvested yeast - really thoroughly. Then grow a new starter from the good yeast you get after washing.

Should get rid of the dead cells and the vegemite flavours and leave you with good healthy cells.

 

[hoohaaman]

As a follow up,for those who search the topic. Chucked the 2206,had plenty good viable 2124,results so far tell me I can safely leave 2206 out of the yeast bank

Fallen in love with 2124,amazing beast B)

 

[drsmurto]

Missed this thread before....

i used 2206 in a dunkel. Collected the yeast cake and washed it several times as i normally do.

The resulting yeast is much darker than any other in the yeast bank.

and before anyone suggests the darker beer, this yeast is much darker than yeasts used to brew stouts!

Anyone else noticed this?

 

[Jonez]

Hi, reviving this thread (which came out in my search) to ask a couple of questions.
I am using this yeast (WY2206) and am a bit worried that I opened my fridge and smelt like septic tank or someones fart.

I am not sure I did the right thing when attempting to make the starter. First time I really use my own liquid yeast. Anyway, I thinking I didn't give enough time or something. I smacked the pack and left it for about an hour, them boiled a couple of tablespoons of LDME and brought it down to 22C. added the yeast from the pack and filled two tallies.

Then left it overnight and next day split each bottle in three stubbies (added sterilised water) . I had read you could make six starters from a pack but I am now afraid I should have used more malt for this. Anyway, I used one of those on my brew. Kept the rest in the fridge(one of them to give away to another brewer)

After a couple of days with minimal or no activity, (pitched at 21C) I was thinking I most likely underpitched so was preparing to add some more of the yeast I was keeping to avoid the bugs getting a foothold. Ended up not doing it since gravity had dropped 4 points from 1044 to 1040 and there started to be some good activity in the airlock. (still bubbling now 6 days on- controller set to 12C)

question is: is this smell a sign of infection? I have seen a lot I should expect a rotten egg smell, but not this one.
also, did I put too little malt to start the yeast? something wrong with the way I handled the yeast?

Thanks
Jonez

 

[goomboogo]

Jonez, with the 2206 being a lager yeast you can expect some sulphur during fermentation. Your yeast handling does need some work. With respect to the one hour after smacking, the primary reason for smacking is to check the viability of the yeast. From your post I am assuming you put half of the yeast into each tallie along with the tablespoon of dme. I don't know how much a tablespoon of dme weighs but when making starters a commonly used amount is 100g/litre of water. This will give an approximate gravity of 1040. A tablespoon/tallie (750ml) is going to be well under this. Yeast growth will be minimal under these conditions so essentially you have merely halved the quantity of the original pack. By further splitting each tallie into 3 stubbies with no additional food source for the yeast, each stubbie will have little more than the one-sixth of the original yeast cell count of the smack pack.

By using one of these stubbies you have significantly under-pitched your lager which may account for some of the extra smells coming from the fermenter. To put it in perspective, for a 1050 or so O.G lager depending on pitching temperature you will find people using starter sizes of anywhere between 2 to 4 litres. That's a starter made from the entire yeast pack. This gives an idea of just how under-pitched your brew is. There have been recent threads on here covering lagers and pitching large starters.

When looking at getting the most out of your liquid yeast in terms of number of brews/yeast package a place to start is the airlocked article in 'The Common Ground' written by Batz. There are many yeast propagation techniques and eventually you will find a method that best suits your brewing.

 

[Jonez]

Jonez, with the 2206 being a lager yeast you can expect some sulphur during fermentation. Your yeast handling does need some work. With respect to the one hour after smacking, the primary reason for smacking is to check the viability of the yeast. From your post I am assuming you put half of the yeast into each tallie along with the tablespoon of dme. I don't know how much a tablespoon of dme weighs but when making starters a commonly used amount is 100g/litre of water. This will give an approximate gravity of 1040. A tablespoon/tallie (750ml) is going to be well under this. Yeast growth will be minimal under these conditions so essentially you have merely halved the quantity of the original pack. By further splitting each tallie into 3 stubbies with no additional food source for the yeast, each stubbie will have little more than the one-sixth of the original yeast cell count of the smack pack.

By using one of these stubbies you have significantly under-pitched your lager which may account for some of the extra smells coming from the fermenter. To put it in perspective, for a 1050 or so O.G lager depending on pitching temperature you will find people using starter sizes of anywhere between 2 to 4 litres. That's a starter made from the entire yeast pack. This gives an idea of just how under-pitched your brew is. There have been recent threads on here covering lagers and pitching large starters.

When looking at getting the most out of your liquid yeast in terms of number of brews/yeast package a place to start is the airlocked article in 'The Common Ground' written by Batz. There are many yeast propagation techniques and eventually you will find a method that best suits your brewing.

Thanks goomboogo,
I had realised I underpitched. But again, would that have been wise If I had pitche more yeast after some days? is it wise to pitch more now? The airlock has been bubbling steadily. A good rate I would say.

The smell is like muddy water... I am not sure this meant to be sulfhur. I don't quite remember I have ever smelt sulfhur.

I have another kit ready for brewing and I thought I will get going with it since the fridge will be in use. Is it wise to repeat the starter process with the yeast I split? There is about one finger height of yeast in each bottle.

 

[smudge]

I purchased an out of date wy2206 and stored in fridge for a further 6 months.Oh it was gluten free.

Couple of weeks ago smacked it,it took over a week to start any swelling.Not unusual for older yeast especially lager,I thought.

Left it alone to do it's thing for a few days,opened it to make starter and innoculate slants only to be greeted with a vegemite smelling dark mess.I guessed autolysis.

I have never had a smack pack which eventually with some TLC,didn't offer the goods.So was pretty surprised with what I experienced.

Not complaining about reseller ect.more interested in what happened

hoohaaman,

I know this post was from way back, but without a location in your profile, I'm wondering whether yours was bought on special
from G&G.

I had exactly the same experience, except I used mine pretty much straight away (or went to use I should say).

Picked mine out of the specials box and it was only when I got it home I realised it was "gluten free". That didn't worry me. I
"smacked the pack" and it swelled within hours. Went to pour it into a starter and it was black.

This is not a swipe at G&G, because if you buy anything from a specials bin at less than half price you always run the risk. Just
wondering whether this particular batch of specials had been unrefridgerated at some stage in the shipping line.

Anything normally ordered from them has been fresh and of good quality.

Cheers,
smudge

 

[goomboogo]

Thanks goomboogo,
I had realised I underpitched. But again, would that have been wise If I had pitche more yeast after some days? is it wise to pitch more now? The airlock has been bubbling steadily. A good rate I would say.

The smell is like muddy water... I am not sure this meant to be sulfhur. I don't quite remember I have ever smelt sulfhur.

I have another kit ready for brewing and I thought I will get going with it since the fridge will be in use. Is it wise to repeat the starter process with the yeast I split? There is about one finger height of yeast in each bottle.

You can make a starter with the yeast you have. Using a single stubbie would necessitate gradually stepping up before arriving at a suitable starter size. A better option may be to decant the liquid off your remaining 5 stubbies and use all this yeast in a starter. Others may suggest different but the yeast from the 5 stubbies into a 2 litre starter (made with 200 g of DME) would give a much better population than your current brew received.

As far as the current brew is concerned I wouldn't recommend adding more yeast a few days in. As you say, it has begun fermentation so it has passed through those early life-cycle phases so some flavour issues possibly wouldn't be changed by adding more yeast now. That doesn't mean the effects of the under-pitch are all done and dusted. I won't be surprised if you'll be facing a problem with attenuation.

 

[Jonez]

As far as the current brew is concerned I wouldn't recommend adding more yeast a few days in. As you say, it has begun fermentation so it has passed through those early life-cycle phases so some flavour issues possibly wouldn't be changed by adding more yeast now. That doesn't mean the effects of the under-pitch are all done and dusted. I won't be surprised if you'll be facing a problem with attenuation.

sampled today.. SG 1020. It doesn't taste too bad after all but still smells, although less than before. Racked it and there is a yeast cake left which smells milder like described bes fore. Not white but quite brown. I am going to trow this out as we speak.

I was planning to add some more hops at this stage but wonder whether this would be a waste given the circumstances of this brew. any point in doing it?

Edit: attached photo - racked this to two 12L containers to fit in my freezer. I want the fridge available.

 

[hoohaaman]

hoohaaman,

I know this post was from way back, but without a location in your profile, I'm wondering whether yours was bought on special
from G&G.

I had exactly the same experience, except I used mine pretty much straight away (or went to use I should say).

Picked mine out of the specials box and it was only when I got it home I realised it was "gluten free". That didn't worry me. I
"smacked the pack" and it swelled within hours. Went to pour it into a starter and it was black.

This is not a swipe at G&G, because if you buy anything from a specials bin at less than half price you always run the risk. Just
wondering whether this particular batch of specials had been unrefridgerated at some stage in the shipping line.

Anything normally ordered from them has been fresh and of good quality.

Cheers,
smudge

Hey smudge,

did you do a brew with your yeast?I chucked mine.

I don't risk 4 hours work anymore with suspect yeast.I use to take the gamble with yeast,poorly handled/out of date.
Now having a good range in the yeast bank,with some swaps from other members.Yeast expense has dropped to zero.

Having said that,2206 gluten free is the only yeast to cause any problems,even with yeast 3+ years old.

Cheers

 

[smudge]

Hey smudge,

did you do a brew with your yeast?I chucked mine.

I don't risk 4 hours work anymore with suspect yeast.I use to take the gamble with yeast,poorly handled/out of date.
Now having a good range in the yeast bank,with some swaps from other members.Yeast expense has dropped to zero.

Having said that,2206 gluten free is the only yeast to cause any problems,even with yeast 3+ years old.

Cheers

I chucked mine too. Wasn't too happy either because I had 65 litres of Oktoberfest that I was really keen on.

Still need to know though, was yours from G&G in Melbourne? Is it a coincidence that both yeasts have gone tits up because
of some sort of handling issue, or is possible that gluten free yeast from Wyeast are somehow less stable than their normal
range?

I know now to check for the "gluten free" tag on a smack pack. Happy to use it if stability is not an issue, but will avoid it if
others have had similar (black vegemite) experiences.

To reiterate, I'm not pissed off. I paid less than half price for my special and sometimes you get what you pay for.

Cheers,
smudge

 

[Jonez]

. I won't be surprised if you'll be facing a problem with attenuation.

May be...
hydro reading tonight is 1.014. It may drop a bit when bubbles are out. Was wondering whether to shake it or raise temp two degrees. I can see a lot of yeast has dropped to the bottom. I will be more relaxed with a 1.010 to bottle. it doesn't seem sweet though but it may be me.

Taste is good, smell has gone, What should I do at this stage? it has been brewing for 12 days now.

 

[goomboogo]

May be...
hydro reading tonight is 1.014. It may drop a bit when bubbles are out. Was wondering whether to shake it or raise temp two degrees. I can see a lot of yeast has dropped to the bottom. I will be more relaxed with a 1.010 to bottle. it doesn't seem sweet though but it may be me.

Taste is good, smell has gone, What should I do at this stage? it has been brewing for 12 days now.

Attenuation wise it seems to be coming along well. Predicting a terminal gravity is difficult without knowing the particulars of the brew i.e ingredients and method of production. Is it still at 12c? If it's still at 12c then raising the temp a few degrees may help finish it off as well as aid the clean-up process if you think there may be any dyacetyl issues. It won't do any harm to leave it a bit longer before chilling it down.

 

[Jonez]

Attenuation wise it seems to be coming along well. Predicting a terminal gravity is difficult without knowing the particulars of the brew i.e ingredients and method of production. Is it still at 12c? If it's still at 12c then raising the temp a few degrees may help finish it off as well as aid the clean-up process if you think there may be any dyacetyl issues. It won't do any harm to leave it a bit longer before chilling it down.

Ingredients
lager Kit- 23 l
500g dex
500 LDME
320g carapils steeped
boiled 7 Litres kit and sugars, plus liquid from grains
It has been and it is still @12C

When you say it won't harm to leave it a bit longer before chilling, you mean after raising the temp say to 14C for example, or do you mean leave longer at 12C then raise and then chill?

Edit: by the way, I don't recommend the water containers. There is yeast on the walls where there are bends. And this is after racking and leaving the cake in the primary.

 

[skippy]

I purchased an out of date wy2206 and stored in fridge for a further 6 months.Oh it was gluten free.

Couple of weeks ago smacked it,it took over a week to start any swelling.Not unusual for older yeast especially lager,I thought.

Left it alone to do it's thing for a few days,opened it to make starter and innoculate slants only to be greeted with a vegemite smelling dark mess.I guessed autolysis.

I have never had a smack pack which eventually with some TLC,didn't offer the goods.So was pretty surprised with what I experienced.

Not complaining about reseller ect.more interested in what happened

viable yeast cell counts using methyl blue stains solve this problem......


sp.

 

[Jonez]

When you say it won't harm to leave it a bit longer before chilling, you mean after raising the temp say to 14C for example, or do you mean leave longer at 12C then raise and then chill?

Anyway I went ahead and raised set point to 14C last night. Left the sample at room temp and chacked it today.. 1.012 as shown. Will probably leave a couple of days at 14C

 

[goomboogo]

Anyway I went ahead and raised set point to 14C last night. Left the sample at room temp and chacked it today.. 1.012 as shown. Will probably leave a couple of days at 14C

Sounds like it's going well. Yeah, raising the temp for 24-48 hours will help it along. You could even go a degree or two higher. It sounds like you'll get the 1010 you were aiming for. I'm glad that it's tasting and smelling o.k. It sounds like once it has finished you will end up with a palatable beer. After you've rested the beer for a couple days at the 14-16c I would recommend chilling it down to about 1c for as long as practicably possible before bottling/kegging.

 

[Jonez]

Sounds like it's going well. Yeah, raising the temp for 24-48 hours will help it along. You could even go a degree or two higher. It sounds like you'll get the 1010 you were aiming for. I'm glad that it's tasting and smelling o.k. It sounds like once it has finished you will end up with a palatable beer. After you've rested the beer for a couple days at the 14-16c I would recommend chilling it down to about 1c for as long as practicably possible before bottling/kegging.

Ok. thanks
just a question about the diacetyl rest. Will +4C be better than +2C (12+4 = 16C instead of 12+2=14C). Will this two points drop in gravity (hopefully 1012 to 1010) at 16C make any difference flavourwise as compared to resting it at 14C? If I can safely go to 16C I would prefer that.
Also you said better leave it for a few days before chilling.. can this be left at the resting temp or back to brewing temp?

 

[goomboogo]

Ok. thanks
just a question about the diacetyl rest. Will +4C be better than +2C (12+4 = 16C instead of 12+2=14C). Will this two points drop in gravity (hopefully 1012 to 1010) at 16C make any difference flavourwise as compared to resting it at 14C? If I can safely go to 16C I would prefer that.
Also you said better leave it for a few days before chilling.. can this be left at the resting temp or back to brewing temp?

Leave it at the rest temp. When complete, chill. The main difference between 14c and 16c is that the clean-up will happen quicker at the higher temp. Many people rest at 18-20c but 16c for a couple days should see you through. In terms of flavour I believe there will be no adverse affect by having the beer at 16c at this stage of fermentation.