Mash: Is It Okay To Add Only Sodium Bicarbonate To Distilled Water?

[Mad Alchemist]

Something I've always wondered that would help me with mashes for very dark beers:

Is it okay for me to add nothing but Baking Soda (Sodium Bicarbonate) to the mash to raise the mash pH in a very dark beer?

Does the mash actually need Calcium, or can I add my Calcium Sulfate, Calcium Chloride, etc. after the mash and in the boil kettle?

I guess the base question is: Does the mash need any specific minerals, or just a specific pH?

Example (pardon the units of measurement, but they're unimportant):
Strike Water: 4 gallons
Total Grist Weight: 10.5 lbs
Estimated SRM: 41.6
Roasted Malt % of Specialty Grains: 43%

To get a pH of 5.3, I'd need a Residual Alkalinity of 295+. To get there with just Sodium Bicarbonate in the mash, I can add 7.4g of Baking Soda.

However, I also need at least 50 ppm Calcium. And, I want 100 ppm Chloride and 50 ppm Sulfate. To get all of that and still maintain a pH of at least 5.3 during the mash, I'd need: 1.94g Epsom, 3.15g Calcium Chloride, 7.58g Baking Soda, 3.03g Undissolved Chalk.

If I'm lucky and all I actually care about during the mash is pH and not the actual mineral content, then I can get away with: 7.4g Baking Soda in the mash; 1.94g Epsom, 3.15g Calcium Chloride in the boil kettle. Those numbers are calculated for 4 gallons rather than 5, but you get the point.

 

[bigfridge]

Something I've always wondered that would help me with mashes for very dark beers:

Is it okay for me to add nothing but Baking Soda (Sodium Bicarbonate) to the mash to raise the mash pH in a very dark beer?

Short answer - No. You need calcium for all sorts of things including enzyme activity and yeast health, and you want to avoid Bicarbonate as much as possible.

Long answer depends on the question 'how do you know that your pH is too low' ?

 

[Mad Alchemist]

Short answer - No. You need calcium for all sorts of things including enzyme activity and yeast health, and you want to avoid Bicarbonate as much as possible.

Long answer depends on the question 'how do you know that your pH is too low' ?

Dang, if that's the case, I'll have to go with...

Mash:
1.95g Magnesium Sulfate
3.15g Calcium Chloride
7.60g Sodium Bicarbonate

Boil:
0.50g Magnesium Sulfate
0.80g Calcium Chloride

That ought to keep my mash pH at 5.2 and allow me to get around 100ppm Chloride and 50ppm Sulfate in the final beer.

To answer your question: I know from experience. I always use distilled water as my base because my water is very variable. The only mash water I ever have any difficulty with is the water in question (high chloride ppm in a very dark beer). If I don't treat the water at all, the pH dips way down into the 4s. I always do treat it, but I generally have shied away from the high chloride count (because chloride comes with either calcium or sodium--sodium is undesirable here because I'm already getting it from the baking soda, and calcium brings the pH down).

What I'm trying to do is get my ideal water profile for this sweet stout I'm brewing tomorrow. I'd never thought to only adjust either the calcium (to bring pH down) or bicarbonate (to bring pH up), then add everything else in the boil. Something tells me it's because it told me not to in one of the dozen brewing books I've read.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I'm with bigfridge - I can't imagine very many situations where I would consider adding bi-carbonate to my mash. Perhaps a little chalk if you really need to add carbonate.

I would leave it out altogether and only add it in if you measure your mash pH and its under 5 - which it sounds like it might be, but still - bicarbonate makes beer taste nasty IMO

 

[katzke]

Distilled water is more then naked. I would avoid using it as the only source of brewing water unless the water you have is totally undrinkable.

I would look at what is in your brewing water and then decide what to do. You can always dilute it with distilled water if needed.

If you absolutely need to use distilled water as the only source for brewing. First thing I would add is yeast nutrient or old yeast that has been boiled. Then add Epsom salts to get the magnesium up to around 15ppm. Add gypsum and calcium chloride to get close to 100ppm calcium while maintaining your desired sulfate/chloride ratio. Chalk or baking soda (sodium Bicarbonate) to work out the acid balance. A dose of sea salt would not hurt to get more trace minerals.

The mash is a delicate chemical reaction most of us are lucky enough to pull off with no assistance. Fermentation is also a delicate chemical reaction most of use have had problems with at one time or another. We use the broad term yeast health to fix the problems we have had. Other then fermentation temperature that magic called yeast health is the single most important contributing factor of just making beer or making great beer.

I should have said this first but it did not quite fit the question. Make no adjustments to your water unless you know what is in your water. Before you can adjust what you know is in your water you need to read and get a basic understanding of what is needed to brew. Some is basic to the mash and some is basic to the fermentation and some is depended on style. Most texts do not agree on what the magic water profile is so you need to read as much as you can. Some of the best advice comes from people that can say their water has X in it and they add Y for a style and get Z and it tastes great. Unfortunately that is hard to find. I am working on it but not confident enough to publish my results. The main reason is I do not brew enough to get authoritative results. I would be very leery of anyone that only makes one adjustment to their brewing water. Balance is the key and it would be a coincidence to have water that benefited from only one addition to get perfect brewing water.

 

[fraser_john]

bicarbonate makes beer taste nasty IMO

+1

Think it adds a nasty bitterness and aftertaste.

 

[kevin_smevin]

+1

Think it adds a nasty bitterness and aftertaste.

You want to keep bicarbonate levels below 50ppm. Another option for you is to mash in without your dark grains, rest for 45min and then add your chocolate and roast malts. I've never tried this but have read about people doing it. That way the dark malts wont lower your mash pH and your base malt will convert nice and happy and then just steep your dark malts in the last 15minutes. By this stage most of your conversion will be complete so it wont make a big difference. Dark malts dont need to be converted so a 15minute steep at the end of mashing should be fine. Just a thought. Like i said, i've never tried it.

 

[Fourstar]

+1
Think it adds a nasty bitterness and aftertaste.

Hmm i wonder why, you're simply adding sodium and bicarbonates over say chalk having Calcium and Carbonate.

Sure you are all not thinking Epsom Salts as Mg can effect hop palate at small doses 50ppm~?!

As an example for dark beer adjustments (only place i'd use carbonates unless wanting to simulate a famous water location), Ive used enough CaCl to get the Ca to 50ppm for enzyme activity in the mash then adjusted with baking soda to try and get as close to where i need to be for a stout. if i did the same with just Chalk, i'd probabaly be adding bucketloads of the stuff. Chalk is like taking 1 step forward and two steps back for alkalinity adjustments as the calcium negates the carbonates.

After that, i then add further salts to the boil kettle to adjust where i want my 'water flavour' profile to be. CL:SO4 ratio basically.

Realisically, if you are not brewing dark copper to black beers, keep carbonates away from the mash and kettle.

 

[kevin_smevin]

Hmm i wonder why, you're simply adding sodium and bicarbonates over say chalk having Calcium and Carbonate.

Sure you are all not thinking Epsom Salts as Mg can effect hop palate at small doses 50ppm~?!

As an example for dark beer adjustments (only place i'd use carbonates unless wanting to simulate a famous water location), Ive used enough CaCl to get the Ca to 50ppm for enzyme activity in the mash then adjusted with baking soda to try and get as close to where i need to be for a stout. if i did the same with just Chalk, i'd probabaly be adding bucketloads of the stuff. Chalk is like taking 1 step forward and two steps back for alkalinity adjustments as the calcium negates the carbonates.

After that, i then add further salts to the boil kettle to adjust where i want my 'water flavour' profile to be. CL:SO4 ratio basically.

Realisically, if you are not brewing dark copper to black beers, keep carbonates away from the mash and kettle.

I guess if you add too much carbonate that is where the problem is. It will extract all of the nasty stuff from your malt - more colour, tannins etc which would affect taste. If you dont add too much it should be fine surely. Once again, no more then 50ppm carbonate, and try keep it below 25ppm in pale beers. This info is from a brewing textbook by Wolfgang Kunze but i cant remember which one.

 

[fraser_john]

After that, i then add further salts to the boil kettle to adjust where i want my 'water flavour' profile to be. CL:SO4 ratio basically.

This is where Palmers spreadsheet falls in a heap.

On one of the water podcasts he talked about adding salts to the kettle, but failed to fully elaborate.

For a while, I was taking my salt additions divided by litres of mash water to get a gm/liter measurement, then multiplied by HLT water volume to get the ratio back to where it needed to be in the kettle. Beers turned out well, but I was wondering if it was totally correct so stopped.

My guess is that CL:SO4 ratio stays the same, but very diluted instead (I use rainwater) so going from 124ppm : 80ppm down to 12.4ppm : 8ppm after sparge, not an accurate example, but you get my point.

But, it does not take into consideration the residual alkalinity of the FINAL product, is that important? I'd say so as the recipes we work with target the RA of the final beer EBC.

Not sure where I was heading with this.......long weekend......<drifts off into rambling chatter>

 

[Fourstar]

But, it does not take into consideration the residual alkalinity of the FINAL product, is that important? I'd say so as the recipes we work with target the RA of the final beer EBC.
Not sure where I was heading with this.......long weekend......<drifts off into rambling chatter>

Residual Alkalinity is rerally a focus for the mash, no the boil.

If you are adding them all to the mash you are really compromising your 'flavour adjustment' or 'pH adjustment' to accomodate one or the other. Hence the reason why i do not add all of my salts into the mash, only whats is required to hit my TARGET pH. Once she is all sparged and done, i then calculate it out to my expected FINAL volume and adjust the salts according to how i want my SO4:Cl Ratios and any extra calcium (50-150ppm).

Easy Peasy. Now, you will be dropping your pH somewhat by adding salts to the boil but the negative effects are minimal, (lowered hop utilisation at most.)

What palmer was focusing on in waterganza is what i am doing and have been doing prior to that show. It kidna made sense to me as it keeps it simple for adjusting the mash and then getting the ppm values i want out of the wort post boil.

Cheers. :icon_cheers:

 

[Wolfy]

. Hence the reason why i do not add all of my salts into the mash, only whats is required to hit my TARGET pH. Once she is all sparged and done, i then calculate it out to my expected FINAL volume and adjust the salts according to how i want my SO4:Cl Ratios and any extra calcium (50-150ppm).

I get the extra calcium, Palmers spreadsheet helps with the Cl/S04 Malty/Bitter ratio, I even get the concept of splitting the salts between the mash and the boil - but have no idea how to do it.
How do you calculate your mash-salts by aiming for a target pH? By comparing the expected RA to the beer colour (- through 0 for light beer and getting higher as colour does?)
Is it an artistic educated guess or is there something more?

 

[Fourstar]

Is it an artistic educated guess or is there something more?

Pretty much

There is some method to my madness. firstly i focus on nothing but mash pH. FORGET everything else. OK, what ROAST malts do you have in your grist or highly kilned crystals? Dont just assume because the beers 15 SRM it requires carbonates either. 15SRM attributed by roast malts is acidic while 15 SRM by caraaroma crystal malt is less so. From this i guesstimate my required RA and organise atleat 50ppm of calcium and whatever approximate carbonates either via chalk or bi carb soda. This is calculated off my dough in water at 15L~ NOT my final volume or boil volume.

Next once the mash is done i adjust beersmith to show my final volume, 23L~. from these adjustments i decide how i want my calcium, sulfate and chloride to play out.

For an example, say im doing an APA.

Currently with my mash water @ 15L, and base water (everything below 13ppm) a 3g CaCl addition is added to get the calclium up to 50ppm and whatever chloride, its irrelevant at this stage. The calcium @ 50ppm is beneficial for enzyme activity.

Ca 58ppm, SO4 2ppm, Cl 103ppm, HCO3 13ppm

OK, after this i want to know what my final water profile of the beer will be once i boil down my wort, do hop additions etc. Consequently i adjust beersmith to 23L giving me the following.

Ca 39ppm, SO4 2ppm, Cl 69ppm, HCO3 13ppm

Ok, now because its an APA, i want to focus on 'popping' the hops and give it some bite, todo this i add Gypsum (CaSO4) to bump up the SO4 value. I want my sulfate to be 2.5:1 against the chloride. Roughly around 120-150. Todo this, i simply plug in 1g additions of CaSO4 until i hit my desired target, 6g. This gives me the following.

Ca 100ppm, SO4 148ppm, Cl 69ppm, HCO3 13ppm

Now you ask, am i concerned about the calcium vaules or chloride values?! Not really, aslong as my calcium is below 150ppm (mainly because i notice it on the palate above 100 and alot above 150, kinda dusty) the more calcium the better for yeast health, etc etc. as for the chloride, well tis collateral damage, as long as its not in the 200ppm+ range, its fine whatever it is. Also, pH is less relevant in the boil so im not btoehred by how low its dropped with the calcium additions either. See the flowing for why im not overly concerned.

http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/H...affects_brewing

Also, read howtobrew.com and listen to the brewing networks waterganza for more information.

I hope this helps you understand why i do, what i do. :beer:

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Hmm i wonder why, you're simply adding sodium and bicarbonates over say chalk having Calcium and Carbonate.

Sure you are all not thinking Epsom Salts as Mg can effect hop palate at small doses 50ppm~?!

As an example for dark beer adjustments (only place i'd use carbonates unless wanting to simulate a famous water location), Ive used enough CaCl to get the Ca to 50ppm for enzyme activity in the mash then adjusted with baking soda to try and get as close to where i need to be for a stout. if i did the same with just Chalk, i'd probabaly be adding bucketloads of the stuff. Chalk is like taking 1 step forward and two steps back for alkalinity adjustments as the calcium negates the carbonates.

After that, i then add further salts to the boil kettle to adjust where i want my 'water flavour' profile to be. CL:SO4 ratio basically.

Realisically, if you are not brewing dark copper to black beers, keep carbonates away from the mash and kettle.

No - I am very specifically referring to bi-carbonate, which in my experience tastes nasty - in the way that Fraser John described. Its basically an unwanted mineral in brewing water and most breweries would be looking to minimise levels wherever they could.

In dark copper and black beers - still keep the damn carbonates away from the mash and kettle - just because dublin has hard water doesn't mean you need it to make good stout, you dont - and low mash pH means 3 parts of bugger all unless its really really low, high mash pH makes a hell of a lot more difference than low - and people fritz out about high too much as well. My mash pH would have to be well and truly sub 5.0 before I even though about a carbonate addition (and I wouldn't do bi-carbonate basically no matter what) - I would consider leaving the dark malts out of the mash for the first half though, thats a nice solution that doesn't leave you dicking around with your water too much when the best advice in most circumstances (where you have low mineral content to start with) is to leave it the hell alone and just brew.

 

[Fourstar]

No - I am very specifically referring to bi-carbonate, which in my experience tastes nasty - in the way that Fraser John described.

Got it.

When brewing stouts i only ever get the mash HCO3 content up to 150-200ppm just to be safe depening on how much roast malts i add. If its a small amount, it may only be up to 100ppm. I should probabaly invest in a pH meter so i can avoid where possible by the sounds of things. Its mot much of an issue for me anyway, a dark dark beer is like 1/10 batches for me. I agree with the dicking around part. If its simpler to omit the dark grain until sparge, do it. the low boil pH (if it does fall that low) will be the least of your worries.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Got it.

When brewing stouts i only ever get the mash HCO3 content up to 150-200ppm just to be safe depening on how much roast malts i add. If its a small amount, it may only be up to 100ppm. I should probabaly invest in a pH meter so i can avoid where possible by the sounds of things. Its mot much of an issue for me anyway, a dark dark beer is like 1/10 batches for me. I agree with the dicking around part. If its simpler to omit the dark grain until sparge, do it. the low boil pH (if it does fall that low) will be the least of your worries.

Really - 150-200ppm ... bloody hell. I know that Palmer reckons Dublin has 319ppm... but I have 5 or 6 different brewing texts that quote "classic" water profiles from around the world - none of them agree with Palmer, and quite frankly none of them agree with each other at all. So they are worth bugger all then. In a pinch, the one I would tend to trust the most with regard to the profile used in Dublin, is the one I have from the Institute of Brewing and Distilling out of London - and they quote Dublin water as having only 20ppm of carbonates, although they do note that in the Dublin water profile they are present as bi-carbonates. Note this is not an analysis of the local water supply - it is an analysis of the typical brewing water used. I suppose it could be a typo and is meant to be 200.. but I don't think so.

Going back to a homebrew text thats specifically about recipe formulation - Ray Daniels in Designing Great beers suggests that if anything you might add a little Calcium Carbonate to your water if you are going to brew a stout with natively soft water - but then goes on to say that changing your water profile will make little difference to the flavour perception in a stout.

So I am definitely sure about the no dicking round thing - certainly not until you have brewed a stout with your water without adding crap to it and failed to get what you want. If you just can't brew a decent stout with your water, then maybe screw around with it.

 

[Fourstar]

Really - 150-200ppm ... bloody hell. I know that Palmer reckons Dublin has 319ppm... but I have 5 or 6 different brewing texts that quote "classic" water profiles from around the world - none of them agree with Palmer, and quite frankly none of them agree with each other at all. So they are worth bugger all then.

Well the 150-200ppm is for the mash only, this will thin out to sub 100 usually post boil. Thats on the high end of the scale too. Say if im using 7-10% roast malts.

Ive recently been trying to get water profiles of dublin or even the wicklow mountains from where they get their supply but no luck thus far. Like a needle in a haystack actually.

I think i will invest in pH papers/meter soon so i can get my figures right or atleast make sure im not screwing my mash more than getting it in balance. I had some trust in the nomograph, maybe not so much anymore.

 

[katzke]

We have to remember that the original question was what to do to distilled water to make it suitable to mash a dark beer. Or can they just add baking soda for a dark beer. Least that is how I remember the question.

All this talk about water additions is interesting and I did kind of bring it up. The big point is using 100% distilled water is a very poor choice for brewing water because by definition it has zero minerals and metals in it. Fixing that is the prime issue if a brewer can only brew with distilled water. It would be a very rare case in my experience that a brewer would only be able to brew with 100% distilled water.

Making distilled water suitable for mashing takes a lot of work. I think that if I were forced to use 100% distilled water for brewing I would go back to extract. Half the process is done and all that remains is making sure the yeast will be happy.

 

[kevin_smevin]

Well the 150-200ppm is for the mash only, this will thin out to sub 100 usually post boil. Thats on the high end of the scale too. Say if im using 7-10% roast malts.

Ive recently been trying to get water profiles of dublin or even the wicklow mountains from where they get their supply but no luck thus far. Like a needle in a haystack actually.

I think i will invest in pH papers/meter soon so i can get my figures right or atleast make sure im not screwing my mash more than getting it in balance. I had some trust in the nomograph, maybe not so much anymore.

That much HCO3 is way too much. Copying a water profile of a region is not the key to making a good beer. Like thirsty boy said, low mash pH is not a huge issue. High mash pH is a big issue. HCO3 has really bad effects on brewing. Most breweries around the world will do everything they can to almost totally eliminate HCO3 in their brewing water.

When it comes to palmers spreadsheet about RA and calculating salts etc to get your mash pH right, i have found that it doesn't work really well for me. I have a pH meter and have used palmers table to figure out what salts to add and the pH is always way higher then 5.2. I would be trying to add as little HCO3 as possible. Like is said earlier, professional brewing texts all say to keep HCO3 below 50ppm and below 25ppm for pale beers.

Thats all i will say. You can take it or leave it

 

[Fourstar]

Like is said earlier, professional brewing texts all say to keep HCO3 below 50ppm and below 25ppm for pale beers.
Thats all i will say. You can take it or leave it

Yes i know that, which you have iterated three times now but what about dark/black beer? Thats what im talking about, 20-30SRM.

Light beers never get chalk or sodium bicarbonate from me, (ive had one exception @ 50ppm, all beer <20SRM unless its all coloured with roast barley/carafa, it might get 50-100ppm HCO3). I know 150-200ppm of HCO3 is excessive for pale beers but is it excessive if your grist has 7-10% roasted malts? Without a pH meter i have NFI. At this point ive been trusting the nomograph within reason. (e.g. just getting enough HCO3 into my strike water at the lower end of the dark scale).

If im brewing a theoretical 30SRM beer i'd need 350ppm HCO3 according to the nomograph. This is quite excessive and i take that guesstimate with a grain of salt (pun intended). There is only so much buffer power the malt has, thats why i never jump above that 200ppm mark~.

I think to put it all to rest i'll just buy a pH meter and be done with it. Atleast then i can avoid the armwaving when its time to brew the darkies. :icon_cheers: