Making The Move To Ag

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So I'm looking to make the move to ag brews and I wanted to know when is the 'right' time? Also is the any specialised gear that I need to obtain( I'm looking to do a BIAB setup)and anything that's majorly different?

Thanks in advance
 
So I'm looking to make the move to ag brews and I wanted to know when is the 'right' time? Also is the any specialised gear that I need to obtain( I'm looking to do a BIAB setup)and anything that's majorly different?

Thanks in advance

Mate check out the thread stickys for BIAB. There's plenty of info in there. If you're asking for the right time, well some may argue that you are not ready ;) I guess I would say the right time would be when you're ready to start making higher quality beer and have more control over what you brew. I'm yet to start BIAB myself, however currently mustering the equipment together.

I just bought a book titled Clone Brews which has a bunch of recipe's in there for extract, AG and partials. I think you should get a recipe book as well and start looking into it to get an idea of what can be done with AG.

Cheers

Clint
 
Mate check out the thread stickys for BIAB. There's plenty of info in there. If you're asking for the right time, well some may argue that you are not ready ;) I guess I would say the right time would be when you're ready to start making higher quality beer and have more control over what you brew. I'm yet to start BIAB myself, however currently mustering the equipment together.

I just bought a book titled Clone Brews which has a bunch of recipe's in there for extract, AG and partials. I think you should get a recipe book as well and start looking into it to get an idea of what can be done with AG.

Cheers

Clint

Gday champ, im currently on my move to ag...

Basically when you are confident in your extract brews and the process has become "second nature" i think it is time to move forward. Basically when you feel that extract has little challenge its a good idea to move on IMO.

Some will say that you can always "perfect" your process as so you can achieve the absolute best possible beer for your chosen method, and this hold some thruths, however if you are confident and happy with the beers you are brewing in extract, than i think its a good idea to move to ag.

If you go BIAB first, like me, you will need some VOILE from a textile joint, at minimum a 19 litre boiler/pot, a "cube" for chilling (a 20 odd litre food grade container from bunnings) and a good burner. Most guys here will say you need a 30-40 litre pot but recent posts from Nick_jd have shown how to cook AG with your stove top...

I saw give it a go. But what do i know... im doing my first BIAB tommorow...
 
Yeah I am only thinking about it atm, probably start dressing up my kits before I move to AG but it's always useful to get a different perspective.
 
So I'm looking to make the move to ag brews and I wanted to know when is the 'right' time? Also is the any specialised gear that I need to obtain( I'm looking to do a BIAB setup)and anything that's majorly different?

Thanks in advance


You'll need a pillow case for starters... :ph34r: :lol:

Talk or PM BribieG mate.

Good luck
 
you will need to decide if you will be going gas or electric, if gas you will need a stockpot/keggle, burner & stand, if electric you will just need an urn

as far as the bag goes you can make one yourself out of swiss voile or get one ready made up from gryphon brewing
 
I fully recommend finding some homebrewers or a homebrew club nearby, and ask to join in on a brewday.
I was totally blown away, and thought I'd never do it, but a couple of years down the track am totally loving doing AG beers.
 
I fully recommend finding some homebrewers or a homebrew club nearby, and ask to join in on a brewday.
I was totally blown away, and thought I'd never do it, but a couple of years down the track am totally loving doing AG beers.
Sounds like an excellent idea. Is there a club tracker or something like that on the forums?
 
Hughezy, where are you? You could put your location in your 'side bar' section and you'll probably find a few people in your area. If you can afford around $300 then a 40L electric urn plus a BIAB bag is a virtual "turn key" brewery in its own right. I did an article on the subject here
 
So I'm looking to make the move to ag brews and I wanted to know when is the 'right' time? Also is the any specialised gear that I need to obtain( I'm looking to do a BIAB setup)and anything that's majorly different?

Thanks in advance

hi hugzey

have a read of the biab by Nickjd which gives a good entry biab
of course pistol patches original article is great too but it does involve

Considerably more investment

for me personally I could not justify the expensive of upgrading to a rocket fuel burner and a 30l pot
plus the efort of pulleys to handle a really really hot and heavy bag of grain

the nickjd article is similAr to the setup I have although I differ by keeping the grain bill under 3kg then add a kg or so of dme ten minutes before end of boil ( you need to adjust your hopping regime , I use beersmiyh and thankfully this works it all out for you.

Nickjd article focuses on a 9l batch and I have found you can handle a full 20 litre batch by just adding lme at the end of the boil then 3l or so at the time you put into a cube for "no chill"

you need;
Swiss boil $5
19l bigw/target pot $20
a thermometer $8 I got mine from a kitch shop normLly used by cages for measuring milk temps
a cube

you need other stuff buy I suspect you have this from extract brewing

I thought I would never ag brew but thanks to the cheap entry with the methods described above

Strictly speaking I am a pArtiAl masher but that last kg of dme makes the whole process just so much mode managable

Good luck and get started soon you won't look back
 
what Michael describes is a standard minimash or partial mash - If that's something that interests you, you can do it with a bag if you like, or there are other ways, lots of them - for instance have a look at http://www.howtobrew.com/ - browse around this most excellent forum looking for info on Partial Mashing - or in fact do a Google search on "stove top" partial mashing (some people call it mini mashing) - you will find hours upon hours of entertaining reading on how to partial mash.

If you want to brew a full AG (and you are more interested in the bag methods than a mash tun) - you need to ask yourself a couple of questions.

Is the concept of spending $150 or so to do this a limiting factor??

If it is - then NickJD has a nice thread on how to make a transition to a stove top form of AG brewing that costs very little money - Nick's method sort of welds BIAB to more traditional Batch Sparging and sprinkles it with High Gravity brewing. It is cheap - but in my opinion it trades that money saving for complexity. And I am not personally convinced that it is the surest route to brewing the highest quality beer - it might be, I hope it is. But there are reasons why it might not be and I remain a little skeptical as of now. Still - it is at the very least, a perfectly good stepping stone technique that will get you brewing nice AG beer quickly and cheaply.

Is what attracts you to BIAB rather than a mash tun based system, the simplicity and ease of the process?

If so, then I think that Nick's method isn't for you. That method is pretty much on a par with mash tun brewing from a process/complexity/difficulty perspective. Neither Nicks HG stovetop method, nor a more traditional Mash tun system is actually very hard - Brewing really is a simple process. BUT - there is no doubt that Full Volume standard BIAB is the easiest and most simple way to produce an AG beer - thats why standard BIAB has turned out to be so attractive to new AG brewers. It is also most probably cheaper to get into than mash tun brewing... but I think it's the simplicity that's the key point. You do need a bigger (40L+) pot; and you would struggle to do it on your stove so a heat source either gas or electric is required - and thats where the expense comes in. Still - I expect that I could build a brand new, from nothing BIAB set-up and hand you change from $200 - a decent amount less with a bit of scrounging and second hand hunting about. The simplest, easiest and most compact set-up (once again demonstrating that you exchange money for ease in BIAB) is a 40L commercial hot water urn from Birko, Crown, Zip, Roband etc etc - just like they have at the Footy club. They work a treat, have inbuilt thermostats, are nice commercial units so you don't need to build, drill, wire, weld, solder or glue anything at all. Plug in and brew. But they will cost you closer to $300 for a new unit, and second hand ones are a bit of a PITA to find. If simplicity is what you are after - than an urn (Birko I think is the better choice) is what you want.

For balance - there are people out there who feel the same way about BIAB in any way shape or form, that I do about high gravity stovetop BIAB. They are yet to be convinced that it is a genuine way to brew the best quality beer that you can. They disagree with me and are therefore little better than raving lunatics - however their opinions may be worth considering I suppose.

Will single batches always be enough for you??

If you think you might want to brew, even occasionally, a double batch - then you will need a bigger system. You can upsize from single batch standard BIAB to double batch for much less than double the price. But it takes the Stovetop and Urn options off the table. You definitely need a pot and heat source combo.

In my opinion the systems that best suit the answers to the above questions are --

Note: I will always recommend the electric option first as I think it's almost always the better option for brewing. I am talking about new, legit equipment. If you can get stuff second hand, or if you are willing to use a keg you "found" down by the river... great, that will make things cheaper.

1 - I want it cheap - the cheaper the better and I don't mind a bit of mucking about to have it at the minimum price

A 19L pot from K'Mart or wherever - Some of the pots you already have in your kitchen & Nick's stovetop method. A bag.

2 - I don't mind spending a bit of cash to keep it simple - but lets keep it under a couple of hundred bucks.

A 40L pot and a 2400W over the side immersion element. Pot modified to include a ball valve in the bottom. The element is a little on the dear side so for less money you could have a stock standard camping shop 3 ring LPG burner. BUT - if you don't already have a BBQ gas bottle and regulator, then these will cost extra and the electric element becomes the cheaper option again. Also factor in that you need to fill that Gas bottle every 4-6 brews and that will cost $20+ each time.. electricity is much cheaper in the long run. A bag of course.

3 - I want it simple and off the shelf, I have no handyman skills and don't wish to develop them - $300 is OK by me.

A 40L Birko hot water urn and your bag.

4 - But I might want to do the occasional double batch to keep me in beer when time is short.

Same as option 2 - but this time with a 60-70pot. You can still brew a double batch with 1x2400W element, but things take a fairly long time to heat up and boil... if your "occasional" might actually be a bit more regular, then your life will be easier if you go with either the gas, or two electric elements if your electricity supply can handle that amount of power. A 60L pot and over the side element is my "ideal" BIAB system from a cost and versatility perspective.

5 - I think I will want to be brewing double size batches all the time, I have a lot of friends and a drinking problem... show me the volume!!

A 70-80L pot and 2 x 2400W elements. Or 4 ring burner (or one of the more powerful gas burners from the sit sponsors). Your burner choice will be about how much time you are willing to spend waiting for things to heat up and get to the boil - all the options will actually boil the wort well enough. You may also want to consider the need for a pulley of some sort to raise and suspend the bag... you can still do a double batch without well enough, but it would make your life a hell of a lot easier if you do have one.

Those aren't your only options - not by a long shot. And this is all in the general realm of BIAB. But - I have personally brewed at least a number of times on each of the options I mention (except the urn) and know for a fact that they are simple and great systems for making AG beer. I re-state my opinion that option 4 with an electric element is the ideal BIAB system.

Hope that helps you out a little

TB
 
The post above should be (perhaps changed to second person plural) a sticky.
 
The post above should be (perhaps changed to second person plural) a sticky.


Aggree with you their nick. Would be a good reference for those considering going into all grain. Good effort their thirsty boy, i hope you saved it so you can repost when needed.
 
what Michael describes is a standard minimash or partial mash - If that's something that interests you, you can do it with a bag if you like, or there are other ways, lots of them - for instance have a look at http://www.howtobrew.com/ - browse around this most excellent forum looking for info on Partial Mashing - or in fact do a Google search on "stove top" partial mashing (some people call it mini mashing) - you will find hours upon hours of entertaining reading on how to partial mash.

If you want to brew a full AG (and you are more interested in the bag methods than a mash tun) - you need to ask yourself a couple of questions.

Is the concept of spending $150 or so to do this a limiting factor??

If it is - then NickJD has a nice thread on how to make a transition to a stove top form of AG brewing that costs very little money - Nick's method sort of welds BIAB to more traditional Batch Sparging and sprinkles it with High Gravity brewing. It is cheap - but in my opinion it trades that money saving for complexity. And I am not personally convinced that it is the surest route to brewing the highest quality beer - it might be, I hope it is. But there are reasons why it might not be and I remain a little skeptical as of now. Still - it is at the very least, a perfectly good stepping stone technique that will get you brewing nice AG beer quickly and cheaply.

Is what attracts you to BIAB rather than a mash tun based system, the simplicity and ease of the process?

If so, then I think that Nick's method isn't for you. That method is pretty much on a par with mash tun brewing from a process/complexity/difficulty perspective. Neither Nicks HG stovetop method, nor a more traditional Mash tun system is actually very hard - Brewing really is a simple process. BUT - there is no doubt that Full Volume standard BIAB is the easiest and most simple way to produce an AG beer - thats why standard BIAB has turned out to be so attractive to new AG brewers. It is also most probably cheaper to get into than mash tun brewing... but I think it's the simplicity that's the key point. You do need a bigger (40L+) pot; and you would struggle to do it on your stove so a heat source either gas or electric is required - and thats where the expense comes in. Still - I expect that I could build a brand new, from nothing BIAB set-up and hand you change from $200 - a decent amount less with a bit of scrounging and second hand hunting about. The simplest, easiest and most compact set-up (once again demonstrating that you exchange money for ease in BIAB) is a 40L commercial hot water urn from Birko, Crown, Zip, Roband etc etc - just like they have at the Footy club. They work a treat, have inbuilt thermostats, are nice commercial units so you don't need to build, drill, wire, weld, solder or glue anything at all. Plug in and brew. But they will cost you closer to $300 for a new unit, and second hand ones are a bit of a PITA to find. If simplicity is what you are after - than an urn (Birko I think is the better choice) is what you want.

For balance - there are people out there who feel the same way about BIAB in any way shape or form, that I do about high gravity stovetop BIAB. They are yet to be convinced that it is a genuine way to brew the best quality beer that you can. They disagree with me and are therefore little better than raving lunatics - however their opinions may be worth considering I suppose.

Will single batches always be enough for you??

If you think you might want to brew, even occasionally, a double batch - then you will need a bigger system. You can upsize from single batch standard BIAB to double batch for much less than double the price. But it takes the Stovetop and Urn options off the table. You definitely need a pot and heat source combo.

In my opinion the systems that best suit the answers to the above questions are --

Note: I will always recommend the electric option first as I think it's almost always the better option for brewing. I am talking about new, legit equipment. If you can get stuff second hand, or if you are willing to use a keg you "found" down by the river... great, that will make things cheaper.

1 - I want it cheap - the cheaper the better and I don't mind a bit of mucking about to have it at the minimum price

A 19L pot from K'Mart or wherever - Some of the pots you already have in your kitchen & Nick's stovetop method. A bag.

2 - I don't mind spending a bit of cash to keep it simple - but lets keep it under a couple of hundred bucks.

A 40L pot and a 2400W over the side immersion element. Pot modified to include a ball valve in the bottom. The element is a little on the dear side so for less money you could have a stock standard camping shop 3 ring LPG burner. BUT - if you don't already have a BBQ gas bottle and regulator, then these will cost extra and the electric element becomes the cheaper option again. Also factor in that you need to fill that Gas bottle every 4-6 brews and that will cost $20+ each time.. electricity is much cheaper in the long run. A bag of course.

3 - I want it simple and off the shelf, I have no handyman skills and don't wish to develop them - $300 is OK by me.

A 40L Birko hot water urn and your bag.

4 - But I might want to do the occasional double batch to keep me in beer when time is short.

Same as option 2 - but this time with a 60-70pot. You can still brew a double batch with 1x2400W element, but things take a fairly long time to heat up and boil... if your "occasional" might actually be a bit more regular, then your life will be easier if you go with either the gas, or two electric elements if your electricity supply can handle that amount of power. A 60L pot and over the side element is my "ideal" BIAB system from a cost and versatility perspective.

5 - I think I will want to be brewing double size batches all the time, I have a lot of friends and a drinking problem... show me the volume!!

A 70-80L pot and 2 x 2400W elements. Or 4 ring burner (or one of the more powerful gas burners from the sit sponsors). Your burner choice will be about how much time you are willing to spend waiting for things to heat up and get to the boil - all the options will actually boil the wort well enough. You may also want to consider the need for a pulley of some sort to raise and suspend the bag... you can still do a double batch without well enough, but it would make your life a hell of a lot easier if you do have one.

Those aren't your only options - not by a long shot. And this is all in the general realm of BIAB. But - I have personally brewed at least a number of times on each of the options I mention (except the urn) and know for a fact that they are simple and great systems for making AG beer. I re-state my opinion that option 4 with an electric element is the ideal BIAB system.

Hope that helps you out a little

TB

This is a very good summary of the major techniques and investments.
Well done Thirsty Boy

One more point you may consider adding is the extra time (some people just dont have 5+ hour including clean up) and the appeal of smaller batch - like Nick JD or throwing a KG of DME at the end is appealing

It does take more time and energy with the 30L+ methods (compared with 12-14L) - perhaps you could add Estimates for this ThirstyBoy and make into some kind of sticky guide ??

It would be good to have the beginner AG (or half batch or partial brewer) be aware of the time commitments.

I am not religious about any method (and if I had all the gear for the full AG I am sure I would consider it would consider it easy too)

I just think for a beginner "full disclosure" is best, so there are no surprises - we need to make sure new brewers are encouraged to continue with whatever method works for them ....

:D
 
It doesn't really take very much longer for the larger volume batches Michael - a little yes, but not much. If you were doing the larger volumes with the same heat source it would, but in general we are talking about swapping to a full volume method and including a much more grunty power source as part of the equation.

I've brewed quite a few small batches and they take at least 3/4s+ of the time a big batch takes. Assuming no-chill... From turning on the tap to fill your brew kettle to screwing the lid onto your no-chill cube, a full sized BIAB brew should be about a 4 hr operation, and thats with a 90 min mash and a ramp to mash out. The bigger your heat source, the shorter the time.

For full disclosure's sake... are you including the time it takes to boil and cool the dilution water you need to use if you brew high gravity?? There are lots of little things like that - but mostly, all the methods above are roughly comparable on a time front - with the full volume methods taking a little longer than the short volume methods - and the double batches taking a little longer again.
 
Having just moved from Partials to AG myself, using an electric urn + BIAB + no-Chill, and having just done my third AG today, I have to say that it's actually much easier, less messy, around the same time, and less clean up. It's such a breeze. Dont know where you are at with your brewing right now, but if youre on kits and bits, I would suggest that partials is a step that can easily be skipped, in favoour of going straight to AG. For me, I almost consider that I have wasted my time on 30 brews when I could have been doing AG ages ago.
 
It doesn't really take very much longer for the larger volume batches Michael - a little yes, but not much. If you were doing the larger volumes with the same heat source it would, but in general we are talking about swapping to a full volume method and including a much more grunty power source as part of the equation.

I've brewed quite a few small batches and they take at least 3/4s+ of the time a big batch takes. Assuming no-chill... From turning on the tap to fill your brew kettle to screwing the lid onto your no-chill cube, a full sized BIAB brew should be about a 4 hr operation, and thats with a 90 min mash and a ramp to mash out. The bigger your heat source, the shorter the time.

For full disclosure's sake... are you including the time it takes to boil and cool the dilution water you need to use if you brew high gravity?? There are lots of little things like that - but mostly, all the methods above are roughly comparable on a time front - with the full volume methods taking a little longer than the short volume methods - and the double batches taking a little longer again.

Fantastic breakdown TB - I've been looking for years to move from Partial Grain/Extract to all grain, and Nick_JD and your posts should both be stickied into one mega post with all the details and put at the top of the "moving from Partial to AG" section.

As for the debate between time and batch size - maybe just an equation of time vs Litres. So say with a small BIAB takes x hours, and you get y litres, then it could be expressed as getting y/x litres per hour. Establish a standard time parameter (ie - does time start when pot is first on stove, when you are collecting ingredients, after cleaning, etc and does time finish when mashing complete, in fermenter or at yeast pitch time) - maybe one that starts and finishes when "active" involvement do (eg if you use Nick_JD method and wait for wort to cool overnight and then pitch yeast - it doesn't count, because you aren't taking out time in your day to attend to it, and pitching yeast, even if you rehydrate, takes minimal time.

My 2 worth - I think it's fantastic that you all given enough of a hoot to actually help these people out.
 
Thanks for your replies, especially BribieG and ThirstyBoy.

Bribie, I added where I live but I think due to the lack of gear and distance to travel to acquire ingredients I don't think there will be many people near me.

ThirstyBoy, Like so many other posters on this thread imo you should get that response stickied.

However I might stick with dressing up kits until I can get the gear.
 
I completed my fourth Birko urn BIAB AG brew on Friday, and I agree, it's not much more drama than K & Bits brewing. I have a 20 litre plastic cube which I fill with the fresh hot wort and let it cool overnight, then straight into the fermenter. I scrub the urn down, and then boil about 6 litres of 50% white vinegar/water , then leave to drain and that's it.

At them moment I simply refer to the Recipe DB here, pick a beer style I am interested in, log onto to Craftbrewer and order the grain bill, yeast and hops, pick up, heat 33 lites water to 70deg, add grain to bag to water, wrap up in towels and doona, leave for 90 mins, return, lift and drain bag, add drained wort from bag to urn, boil for 60 mins with hop additions.

Very nice beer and I am such an amatuer at this!!
 
Yup that's BIAB, doesn't get much easier than that, but i have to say i've managed to burn myself a couple of times, hoisting the brew or cubing it.
Once you've got the hang of it though it's fairly easy.
 

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