Making candi syrup?

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Nick667

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I want to try an American amber recipe from Homebrewtalk and it advises making candi syrup using Diammonium Phosphate only. I think because of the nitrogen and flavour it imparts.
Well I cant find it anywhere here in NZ and was wundering if anyone can advise a substitute.
 
DAP is used for the chemical reaction. If you heat sugar you will get caramelisation, by adding DAP you get Malliard reactions which produces different flavours to straight caramelisation.

As American Amber should be hop forward so you might get away with substituting plain sugar for the amber. Maybe post your recipe for more specific suggestions.
 
Diammonium phosphate and calcium hydroxide, post inversion using an acidic catalyst.
 
But I just want to know if there is a substitute or where I can get some around here. I can Google DAP until I am blue in the face and get bugger all. I even asked a chemist and he said " we dont really deal with chemicals any more, try a Google search ". Home brew shop have a yeast nutrient with DAP in it for wine but it has a lot of other additives and is not suitable. I can try something off Youtube using pickeling lime or cream of tarter, will this be the same in he end? Or I can just buy some dark amber candi syrup from the home brew shop as I am only brewing 24lts but it is a bit of fun to try something new dont you think?
 
I'd suggest looking into using Ammonia Carbonate instead of DAP.
In my experiments with trying to make homemade candy syrup, this seemed to produce the best & "cleanest" result. DAP really didn't seem "right". Lye water was better, but the AC seemed best

Having said that, i've been happy with a few of my attempts but none of them really compare to the real thing.
I enjoy the challenge of trying to perfect the process at home, however i'd suspect the professionals utilise an array of specialised equipment like large scale pressure cookers & precise/constant temperature control, possibly also shielding the syrup with CO2 during or after cooking (i suspect oxidation might be an issue with the finer quality of the syrups - note that the manufacturers claim their syrups must be used within a week or 2 or opening the packaging, up to 6 months if kept in freezer, which seems relevant to oxidation, to me).

FWIW, having chased this rabbit hole for a year or 2, and the reading & inter webs research involved, i'd point out (the obvious) that there's a lot of people with lots of different opinions on how to make candy syrup, many of which seem to be at least partially wrong, or optimistic in how close their result is to the real stuff. Candi syrup isn't just carefully burnt sugar. Nor is it as simple as just chucking in a few additives/reagents and applying heat.
I think my last attempts were using Cream of Tartar as the acidifying agent, and Ammonia carbonate as the alkalising agent & nitrogen reagent for the Maillard reactions. I also suspect the Maillard reactions are also quite minimal, so you don't need much.
Good luck!! ;)

EDIT - to answer the question of where to find this, i discovered it's used as a baking agent for certain Greek/mediterranean biscuits/cakes (?) so after much hunting in greek grocery stores, i found a tub of it at the Mediterranean wholesalers in brunswick in melbourne. Maybe there's something like that near you?
 
If you get the "Yeast Nutrient" that comes in yeast packet sized sachets, it will usually be pure DAP.
Having said that I judged some of the Belgian Dark Strong beers at the state comp. A couple came through that had a really bad burnt sugar flavour (I know the commercial Candi sugar doesn't throw that flavour), one of them also had some nitrosamine flavours, not a good thing.
Seriously, for blond beer/Candi I would just use white sugar (unless I was making a showoff Triple).
By the time I add up the hours, cost of other ingredients and my desire to drink really nice beer, I would invest in the real thing.
Mark
 
A couple came through that had a really bad burnt sugar flavour (I know the commercial Candi sugar doesn't throw that flavour), one of them also had some nitrosamine flavours, not a good thing.
Hey Mark, what does nitrosamine taste like? Can't find a description.
Apologies to the OP for the OT [emoji57]
 
To me - Burning fertiliser bags - an unpleasant childhood memory that has stayed with me!
Mark
 
NB: with my post a few above, the Lye water is only an alkalizing agent, so you still need to combine it with an amino/nitrogen source - I'd use either the Ammonium carbonate or DME, which has a small protein content similar to wort.
From memory I generally used a little lye to help neutralize the acidity, then the AC to both add Nitrogen and further alkalize the solution.
In reality, you can probably just use the AC & keep it simple. I'd probably go with this in my future experiments.
Fwiw, the caramelization reaction substantially acidifies the syrup. (Confirmed via lots of pH testing). So any alkalizing effect is only temporary at the higher temperatures.
Hence, I'm not totally convinced on the necessity/theory of using an alkalizing agent.


FYI I got the Lye water from an Asian grocery store.
 
Note that Martin from National Homebrew stocks the CSI syrups.

I'm personally not that convinced by the Simplicity* but their Golden and D90 are exquisite. I can only assume similar amounts of deliciousness with D45 and D180.

*cane sugar, Citric acid and alanine baked in the oven at 90°C for an hour is pretty easy for a tasty straw coloured invert syrup.

Trust the above advice that trying your own dark syrups is just not worth the anguish, mess, and general disappointment vs a 5 minute online order from National Homebrew.
 
d180/d2 is so worth the purchase price. Supping on a nearly 2 year old dark strong that has not yet been bottled (next weekend or so) that has a fair whack of d2/180 from brewman.

Oh lordy.
 
If you have a look in the Adjuncts listed on Brewman, you will find Clear and Amber Candi Rock (really big crystals). He also has a Belgian Soft Blond and Amber. The Rock and Soft can be ordered by the gram in BrewBuilder, so available in less than kg quantities.
Mark

PS - If you order some of the Amber Rock, order some extra, you will end up eating some, its pretty irresistible.
I have been known to put the amber syrup on pancakes...
M
 
I chucked my little sample of the soft blond into a belgian pale I made last weekend. Doing a dubbel this weekend which will feature my samples of amber and dark rocks, as well as some d180.

Quite keen to give the 240 a crack at some point. Maybe my next dark strong.
 
I ended up buying some amber candy syrup and the beer, an American amber, is now @ 3 weeks, bottle coditioned, clear as a bell and delicious. I would really like to look into some more brews along these lines. I am trying to avoid dry hopping if I can and want some beers with a spiked mellow flavour if possible and not to blow your mind as far as abv goes. Any suggestions?
 

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