Low OG ( again I know)

[Beamer]

For a beginner, should I try bringing my ph levels down to start with and see if that helps?

 

[Beamer]

Hi Beamer, was the top one chlorine or was it chloride, also did they say the hardness was total hardness?
Assuming the chlorine is actually chloride and estimating the calcium level from the hardness (assuming it was total hardness) then my estimate from playing with a spreadsheet is you have:

Ca 15
Mg 3.8
Na ~5 ish
HCO3 65
SO4 2.3

so you want to get the Ca level up a bit (~50) using CaCl or Ca SO4. Just my opinion though. Best dowload a copy of Bru'in water spreadsheet from https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/ and play with that to get Ca up a bit and your mash pH around 5.4


Regards, Dave

 

[Beamer]

Hi Beamer, was the top one chlorine or was it chloride, also did they say the hardness was total hardness?
Assuming the chlorine is actually chloride and estimating the calcium level from the hardness (assuming it was total hardness) then my estimate from playing with a spreadsheet is you have:

Ca 15
Mg 3.8
Na ~5 ish
HCO3 65
SO4 2.3

so you want to get the Ca level up a bit (~50) using CaCl or Ca SO4. Just my opinion though. Best dowload a copy of Bru'in water spreadsheet from https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/ and play with that to get Ca up a bit and your mash pH around 5.4


Regards, Dave

thanks for this, sorry I didn't see it before my final post

 

[dblunn]

Probably not, you can be honing a lot other process variables first. Water chemistry is fine tuning, if your water is good like it is on most of the east coast then it will work ok. The biggest thing I have noticed with fixing the Ca level (other than the pH numbers in the mash) is my beer seams to clear much quicker, I'm on northern Shoalhaven water with a native Ca of 22 ppm.
Dave

 

[Rocker1986]

Bear in mind it's the mash pH you want around that 5.4 number, not the starting water pH. Adding grains to the water drops it, with darker grains lowering it more than lighter grains, and it can be dropped further by the use of mineral salts and/or acid malt/lactic acid. The latter is an easy option to drop it without adding shitloads of mineral salts if it is a bit too high.

Admittedly, mash pH isn't something I've done any work on so far, maybe it's already where it needs to be, maybe even if it is a little out, it's not enough to cause any issues with efficiency or the final beer in the glass, so I haven't bothered. I have some acid malt to use in my pilsners though, since I use very low mineral content water in them. Will be interesting to see whether it makes a noticeable difference to the finished beer.

 

[Droopy Brew]

Hi Beamer, give the 5.2 stabliser a miss as there seams to be a lot of negative comments about its use. What is your water report down your way? Can you tell us your Ca, Mg, Cl, Na, SO4 and alkalinity?
Dave

Have you used it or just going off some stuff you have read?
I have used it for about 6 months and have noticed no issues with taste and have seen slight improvements with efficiency. There are also a number of guys in the local HB club with similar findings. I haven't personally heard of anyone having an issue with it here.
It is not something I would rule out using.
That said, you could try throwing 100g of acidulated malt into your next grain bill. It is a bit cheaper option and will let you know if pH is a contributing factor. With your stated pH in the water supply, I predict it would be.

 

[dblunn]

Have you used it or just going off some stuff you have read?
I have used it for about 6 months and have noticed no issues with taste and have seen slight improvements with efficiency. There are also a number of guys in the local HB club with similar findings. I haven't personally heard of anyone having an issue with it here.
It is not something I would rule out using.
That said, you could try throwing 100g of acidulated malt into your next grain bill. It is a bit cheaper option and will let you know if pH is a contributing factor. With your stated pH in the water supply, I predict it would be.

Not used it but information gleaned from respected sources such as Palmer, Zainasheff and others. The biggest issue seems to be the amount of Na added. Might not be an issue if the water is low in minerals anyway as in your case.

 

[Droopy Brew]

Fair enough. Sodium is on the lower side in the local water.May be the reason.
I do think the alkaline water is contributing to your issues beamer.

 

[Jack of all biers]

Don't play with your water pH until you know for sure your mash pH is an issue. That requires reliable and calibrated equipment for testing, otherwise you are guessing and can cause yourself some major frustrations. You are new to this game and I will bet that your perceived issues with lower OG lays elsewhere. As has been suggested, make one change at a time (ie grain crush finer, or rinse your grains in a mini sparge) and see if there is a positive effect on higher OG without a negative effect on taste. This is an important point, because you could strive to achieve the best mash efficiency and end up with a beer that doesn't taste as good, because you have over done something (ie sparging out astringency from the grains).

My 2 cents: 6 or 7 brews in should be aware of water chemistry's effects, but not playing with it until you have all your other processes down pat.

 

[Beamer]

Don't play with your water pH until you know for sure your mash pH is an issue. That requires reliable and calibrated equipment for testing, otherwise you are guessing and can cause yourself some major frustrations. You are new to this game and I will bet that your perceived issues with lower OG lays elsewhere. As has been suggested, make one change at a time (ie grain crush finer, or rinse your grains in a mini sparge) and see if there is a positive effect on higher OG without a negative effect on taste. This is an important point, because you could strive to achieve the best mash efficiency and end up with a beer that doesn't taste as good, because you have over done something (ie sparging out astringency from the grains).

My 2 cents: 6 or 7 brews in should be aware of water chemistry's effects, but not play with it until you have all your other processes down pat.

Thanks Jack,
Spoke with the homebrew shop today and he suggested the mini sparge aswell, will be trying that. Still need to get my boil off perfected aswell.

I am enjoying all this learning and really cant get enough of it, just need the experience to go with it. As you said the taste is the major aspect, I would like to see what the difference is when hitting the numbers.

Thanks again to you all

 

[Jack of all biers]

Hitting the numbers is not really what you should be aiming for. It is a thing we all strive for, but really uping the grain bill by 100-200 gms will get you there with a lower efficiency and still keep a good taste. In saying that, good luck in improving your efficiency , it is something we all keep at to be honest. Keeping up with the Joneses may be part of it, but knowing you did a recipe that someone else wrote and that you nailed is a good feeling also. :beer: Just remember that if the beer tastes superior, 100-200 gms of grain is about 75c to$1.50 worth so keep it in perspective.

 

[Beamer]

Hey all,

Just an update and thankyou,

Thanks to all on their advice with this thread.

I ended up trying almost everything over the last two months. I have done smaller mash volumes with mash outs and sparges. Full volumes with no sparge but a mash out, I have tried salt additions and checked the water profile.

And the last few brews I changed a few things, I boosted my batch size 1L on brewmate, bought myself a grain mill set it to .6mm, I now mash and boil for 90 and consistently hit 68-70%, no mash out .It has improved from 55%- 58% Which I am very happy with.

I also read a post that better efficiency doesn't make better beer. Made me feel good on the inside

all there is to do now is taste the difference.

Thankyou all once again

Cheers,
Beamer

 

[MHB]

Just glanced through the thread rather than read every post in detail, so if I've missed a couple of things - sorry in advance.
In your first brew I get a mash efficiency of about 75%, there really isn't much reason why that shouldn't be up around 90%.
There really are four things that will knock your mash efficiency that badly, in roughly likelihood order
1/ Your mash temperature isn't what you think it is. Get a decent laboratory thermometer you can trust
2/ Some other measurement is very wrong. Hydrometer, grain scales, liquor volumes. Check and calibrate everything.
3/ Your grind is really bad. Looks like you have addressed that.
4/ Water chemistry is seriously askew. From your water report it could stand a bit of work, but it isn't far enough out of bounds to cause the problems you are having.

Based on experience I will bet you that your mash temperature is out.
Mark

 

[Beamer]

Just glanced through the thread rather than read every post in detail, so if I've missed a couple of things - sorry in advance.
In your first brew I get a mash efficiency of about 75%, there really isn't much reason why that shouldn't be up around 90%.
There really are four things that will knock your mash efficiency that badly, in roughly likelihood order
1/ Your mash temperature isn't what you think it is. Get a decent laboratory thermometer you can trust
2/ Some other measurement is very wrong. Hydrometer, grain scales, liquor volumes. Check and calibrate everything.
3/ Your grind is really bad. Looks like you have addressed that.
4/ Water chemistry is seriously askew. From your water report it could stand a bit of work, but it isn't far enough out of bounds to cause the problems you are having.

Based on experience I will bet you that your mash temperature is out.
Mark

Thanks Mark,

Im brewing tomorrow do ill double check water levels, I get my grain pre packed, I do have a digital kitchen thermometer, but will pick up a new one tomorrow. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[Rocker1986]

I brew BIAB as well and I found a coarser grain crush improved my efficiency. Last batch I hit 89.7% mash efficiency which is about the highest I've ever had I think. Should have been 79.7% brewhouse but I missed my batch volume by a litre which dropped it to 76.5%. But yeah, might be worth experimenting with and see what happens.

Originally I used to get around 75% brewhouse efficiency, which then dropped for a period of time, partly due to my hydrometer reading 2 points low, which I wasn't aware of but there were other things affecting it too. Once I started using the coarser crush on the grains and factoring in the hydrometer error it improved back to that number. And now it seems to be going higher; I haven't changed any of my process.

 

[Beamer]

Just incase anyone ia following or comes across the thread.

I remeasured all my levels and bought a digital thermometer, I was a few litres over my pre boil amount, evaporation rate was out and my thermometer was 2 degress under. So lesson learnt and thanks to all for their advice.

Cheers,
Beamer