Low Alcohol Tolerant Yeasts

[marksfish]

a another thought from left field and i admit i have N.F.I if it would work is stevia fermentable?

 

[nuggetron]

The problem I see with lactose sweetening is the fact that milk contains 50g of lactose per litre. So if you drop in say 1kg of lactose (which isn't really sweet at all) into a 20l batch thats the same lactose quantity as milk. Everyone is "lactose intolerant" it's just the matter of degree. Some people are with only one glass of milk, others will exhibit issues after drinking 10 cups.

The reason I mention this is if you are a moderate? beer drinker you can consume nearly 2l of beer in one sitting and thats the equivalent of drinking 2 litres of milk in regards to lactose. If the alcohol doesn't give you the runs the lactose probably will? And if you give it to friends who are sensitive ... well.

funny story, i am lacotse intolerant, but still drink milk like crazy, up to half a litre a day
i would probably max drink one long neck a sitting, more likely to mix my drinks cause im a bad ass hahah

very good point about the lactose intolerance though
i suppose if i can try it and see what the total amount will be that will need to be added and if it is bordering on being excessive i might just have to put up with back sweetening

found this
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/results-ju...eriments-83060/

agave nectar doesnt ferment
thats interesting
i could use that with pear juice being the main juice
15 litres of pear juice, 5 of apple and 3 of a flavoured juice, agave nectar, pear juice might just hold up and hide the agave flavour but lets the agave sweetness remain

 

[hobartbrewer]

a another thought from left field and i admit i have N.F.I if it would work is stevia fermentable?

Good question. I use Stevia when I'm doing low carb dieting and it's pretty decent taste wise compared to the artificial stuff. My initial reaction is the yeast wouldn't consume it so it may be worth a look into.

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/using-stev...n-cider-149864/

 

[hobartbrewer]

funny story, i am lacotse intolerant, but still drink milk like crazy, up to half a litre a day
i would probably max drink one long neck a sitting, more likely to mix my drinks cause im a bad ass hahah

very good point about the lactose intolerance though
i suppose if i can try it and see what the total amount will be that will need to be added and if it is bordering on being excessive i might just have to put up with back sweetening

Well everyone has a limit on the amount of lactose they can consume within a time period. For some people it's just a real low amount. Give anyone 4 liters of milk in an hour and they'll be shitting the toilet out real soon. It's one of those sugars where you really don't want to be consuming much of it at all really. Since I drink fairly often it's not something I'd add to any of my alcoholic drinks.

Another natural non fermentable sugar to look into is xylitol, they use this in dental candy as bacteria dies when it eats it. You cannot eat much of this though without getting volatile explosions (about 40-80g in a sitting will set you off from personal experience). I just did a google search and found this :-

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/xylitol-do...379/index2.html

I just wondered if it could be used to kill yeast like they claim it kills bacteria.... that guys results seem mixed in regards to killing yeast, but some said they used it to backsweeten with good results.I also wonder if adding xylitol to a brew could help kill any foreign bacteria in it and stop infections from occurring... interesting.

 

[labels]

Slightly Off Topic
I am not a cider drinker but had a Bulmers on tap the other day. It poured and looked like beer, same colour and had a head so it's obviously not pure fruit juice. It even had the body of beer!

I don't know what they're puttng in it, malt maybe but it was sweetish and if what they're adding is not fermentable then you have your answer.

Steve

 

[JDW81]

Everyone is "lactose intolerant" it's just the matter of degree. Some people are with only one glass of milk, others will exhibit issues after drinking 10 cups.

No they aren't, only people who lack the small intestinal brush border enzyme lactase are lactose intolerant.

 

[nuggetron]

prehaps a mix of lactose and xylitol will create a sweet enough brew without the laxative effect
from my biochemistry understanding they effect people differently to one another and so hopefully one of 3 happen
1. the effects cancel one another out (ideal but least likely)
2. the effects work together and you spend the night on the toilet
3. the effects are both present but do not work together (ideal if in low enough concentrations)

may do a few hours of intense research at work to find a sugar or something sweet that is non fermentable and preferably non-laxative effect

the xylitol sound promising, 1.25 cups to 23 litres is quiet promising, i may do a test sample in cups with sugar seeing as it has the same sweetness to determine if 1.25 cups is sufficient, i cant see any problems in terms of laxative effects with only 1.5 cups max of it in 23 litres
works out to be only 12 grams in a 750 ml bottle for 375 grams of xylitol

 

[nuggetron]

No they aren't, only people who lack the small intestinal brush border enzyme lactase are lactose intolerant.

could lactase be added in to the brew to cut the lactose up or will this in turn (if possible) make the lactose fermentable?

 

[JDW81]

could lactase be added in to the brew to cut the lactose up or will this in turn (if possible) make the lactose fermentable?

Lactose is made up of galactose and glucose so splitting the lactose would give you one of each. I don't know if galactose is fermentable (I presume it is as it is a simple sugar) but all you'd be doing is adding a stack more fermentable material giving you a dryer and stronger brew.

 

[nuggetron]

Lactose is made up of galactose and glucose so splitting the lactose would give you one of each. I don't know if galactose is fermentable (I presume it is as it is a simple sugar) but all you'd be doing is adding a stack more fermentable material giving you a dryer and stronger brew.

cheers man
if only i could of been bothered to listen in biochem and molecular biology

 

[JDW81]

cheers man
if only i could of been bothered to listen in biochem and molecular biology

I only know this cause I've got a gastro exam for uni on Friday. By saturday it will be forgotten

 

[nuggetron]

I only know this cause I've got a gastro exam for uni on Friday. By saturday it will be forgotten

the way it should be

 

[Steve@PMF82]

Going on from what labels said, have you tried using some LDME?

The best bottled ciders (for my tastes) have been the ones i have used LDME and a tin a pear juice. Fermented with Wyeast cider they have finished 1006 - 1008 which is still dry, but not 1000 or less dry.

Tin of pear juice and enough apple juice to make up to 10L plus 200g LDME and some yeast nutrient, Ferment at 16 degrees

The malt gives a little mouth feel which also helps lower the perception of dryness.

If you after sweetness like that of a lot of the commercial crap going around these days you need to do as already mentioned and filter / sweeten /keg.

 

[Sam England]

The only success I've had without back-sweetening is with Potassium metabisulphite as per the wino's approach. Dr S mentioned it earlier in this thread, but you are stuck with force carbing. I tried a few litres this year in a spare keg, where you let it ferment to the desired taste, chuck the appropriate mix in and then force carb. It wasn't too bad, but I've actually begun to develop a taste for the drier style. Surprising what 30L a year will do for you!! I also prefer to keep the kegs free for beer and only brew the cider to use up spare apples from the orchard.
Cheers,
BB

 

[Juzdu]

Or use all PET bottles.

Again it was nathan_madness who told me this is a bad idea, he said cider is very susceptible to oxidation in plastic bottles, hence why the cider gurus out there are doing the "1 in plastic, rest in glass" trick, then pasteurising once the plastic bottle gets hard.

And yes, you need to also pasteurise the plastic bottles once they get hard or they will blow too.

 

[hobartbrewer]

No they aren't, only people who lack the small intestinal brush border enzyme lactase are lactose intolerant.

Yah they actually are. Your bodies ability to create the lactase enzyme is limited, for everybody, which means everyone has a point of lactose consumption which will give them the exact same problem.

"Lactose Intolerance" is usually reserved for people that have a very low lactase production, but everyone has a limit. Even those with the lactase persistence mutation would have difficulty downing 2-4 liters of milk in a few hour sitting, more so on a constant basis.

 

[bum]

You guys make me laugh sometimes. Alcohol is a known carcinogen and you're arguing about lactose intolerance...

cider is very susceptible to oxidation in plastic bottles, hence why the cider gurus out there are doing the "1 in plastic, rest in glass" trick

I'd ask the "gurus" (aka anyone with a keyboard) how long they were holding on to their ciders before drinking before I accepted this as a rule for myself. If you're not holding on to a batch for ageing then PET is fine. Some people prefer glass and that is alright but to say PET is no good at all is stupid.

 

[hobartbrewer]

You guys make me laugh sometimes. Alcohol is a known carcinogen and you're arguing about lactose intolerance...

Well spending 30 minutes on a toilet unnecessarily isn't exactly... wait we are males... never mind.

 

[Juzdu]

PET is no good at all

Really? I didn't realise it was no good at all.

 

[nuggetron]

my research so far
xylose/xylitol
Xylitol has no known toxicity in humans. In one study, the participants consumed a diet containing a monthly average of 1.5 kg of xylitol with a maximum daily intake of 430 g with no apparent ill effects.[31] Like most sugar alcohols, it has a laxative effect because sugar alcohols are not fully broken down during digestion; albeit one-tenth the strength of sorbitol.[clarification needed] The effect depends upon the individual. In one study of 13 children, four experienced diarrhea when consuming over 65 grams per day.[32] Studies have reported adaptation occurs after several weeks of consumption.[32]
Adaptation, an increase of the laxation threshold, occurs with regular intake. Xylitol has a lower laxation threshold than some sugar alcohols, but is more easily tolerated than others such as mannitol and sorbitol
-wiki (take of it what you want)
65 grams a day is excessive
lets assume a 23Litre batch of cider would need 500 grams to make it ridiculously sweet
500 grams in to 23 litres = 23.5 litres or there abouts, which comes to only 16 grams in a 750 mL long neck
65 grams of xylitol is 4 long necks, i would never go near that in a day
the more you drink the lesser the effect which is ideal, if you use it instead of normal sugar in your coffee/teas etc and slowly introduce yourself to it
at the moment xylitol is leading the non fermentable sugars
Daily intakes of 30-40 grams of xylitol per day is safe, but can have a laxative effect and cause diarrhea in some people. While there are exceptions and some people have built-up much larger tolerances, daily intakes of over 50 grams of Xylitol per day can have a laxative effect on many people.
-xylitolnow.com (not biased at all)

nice non-biased study
http://www.ecogreenoleo.com/Sugar_Alcohols.pdf
the good
100 grams dissolves in 100 mls of water at 1 degree
the same sweetness as sucrose (as said previously)

im pretty set on xylitol, just need to find a place to buy it and give it a go
thinking of putting it in some sour/dry apple juice or something sour/dry to see the sweetness and if any direct effect on me, the drinker
then i can brew the cider put it in to a few cups and test to find the right concentration
i may fill a bottle throw the correct amount of xylitol in to see if anything ferments, if not then fill up the brewing vessel according to the concentration

and at $15.50 a kilo it isnt too pricey