Lagering

[ironxmortlock]

Hello, I posted this over in the kits section but didn't get a response. Can anyone help me here?

Thanks,

M


Hi Folks,

I've got a couple of questions about lagering.

Does lagering effect the taste or does it just make the beer clearer?
Do I need to rack the beer or can I just leave it in the fermenter and drop the temp?
I've got a Cooper's Australian Bitter with S23 on at the moment; what would be the minimum lagering time? Some people say 6 weeks +!



Thanks for your help!


M

 

[manticle]

Does lagering effect the taste or does it just make the beer clearer?


The cloudiness pre-lagering is caused by a variety of sunstances, including yeast. Some of these substances affect flavour markedly as does dropping them out. It's much more than cosmetic


Do I need to rack the beer or can I just leave it in the fermenter and drop the temp?



You can just drop the temp. Racking will help leave sediment behind, contributing to clearer beer in the long run but you can lager first then rack to bulk prime if you bulk prime or not rack at all and run the risk of a bit more sediment.


I've got a Cooper's Australian Bitter with S23 on at the moment; what would be the minimum lagering time? Some people say 6 weeks +!



I find any amount of time in the cold contributes good things to a beer's maturity and I do it with all beers (not just lagers). Minimum for me would be 5-7 days to make it worthwhile. If you can be patient, longer is better. It's not just cold - it's time and gravity. However for your first, try 2 weeks and see if that gives the result you want. For lagers and Belgians, I usually do 3 weeks. Most ales are about 1 week.

 

[stef]

As far as i'm aware:

1) Lagering does affect the taste of the beer. Will make it smoother, rounder, more integrated.
2) Depends how long you intend to lager for. If you have a proper lagering vessel (ie, that is completely impermiable) then i'd rack into that. If you are lagering for a long time ( probably 4+ weeks ish) then i'd rack it. If less than that, leave it in primary.
3) As long as you can wait. Honestly, being a kit, it probably will never be completely smooth or rounded. No doubt it will benefit, but i personally wouldnt be lagering for months and months- wait until you are AGing for that. So yes, i'd say lager any less than 3 weeks and you wont notice it, but more than 6 weeks ish is probably a bit pointless. Depends if you are bottling or kegging too- if you let it bottle condition you wont need to lager for as long.

All in all, i'd say lagering is pretty subjective and everyone does it differently. If it was me (and i bottle) i'd probably just bottle it and let it sit at ambient for a couple of months in bottles. Save on power bills for more equipment/ingredients...

 

[Anofre]

Makes a massive difference in taste.
If you fermented it properly & cold, then it will taste ordinary until it's lagered.
Assuming you are bottling, I've found it easiest to lager in the bottle.
Taste them at intervals & you will see it goes ordinary to awesome if you can leave it 6 months.

 

[ironxmortlock]

Thanks for the responses guys, much appreciated.

So would I be correct in stating that lagering in the primary will give the same taste as if I racked it, but risks a bit more sediment?

Also, what temperature should I drop it down to to properly lager?

Thanks again,

M

 

[bowie in space]

Drop your temp as low as your fridge will go. Like Anofre said, you can lager in a bottle. I recently had a lager in the primary for four weeks, then bottled and kept in the fermenting fridge at a lagering temps for another four weeks and the results were great. Very smooth with subtle hop flavours. Probably my best brew to date.

I'm going to experiment with my current lager and rack to secondary after three weeks in primary and also try dry hopping the lager beer too. I haven't worked out if I want to dry hop and end of primary or start of secondary. So it's all about trialling things and working out what you like best. Yes, you are more likely to get more sediment if bottling from the primary but you can clear things up with gelatine, etc if you want. I haven't used gelatine in ages and generally find that a cold conditioning period clears a lot of things up anyway.

Happy brewing

Bowie

 

[Fish13]

Drop your temp as low as your fridge will go. Like Anofre said, you can lager in a bottle. I recently had a lager in the primary for four weeks, then bottled and kept in the fermenting fridge at a lagering temps for another four weeks and the results were great. Very smooth with subtle hop flavours. Probably my best brew to date.

I'm going to experiment with my current lager and rack to secondary after three weeks in primary and also try dry hopping the lager beer too. I haven't worked out if I want to dry hop and end of primary or start of secondary. So it's all about trialling things and working out what you like best. Yes, you are more likely to get more sediment if bottling from the primary but you can clear things up with gelatine, etc if you want. I haven't used gelatine in ages and generally find that a cold conditioning period clears a lot of things up anyway.

Happy brewing

Bowie

I have bottled mine about a week ago now and i have it in my esky with a few cold packs in there to drop temp. Should i really move these to teh fridge and let sit there for about 2 weeks for tasting? THe few i have had so far are very malty and creamy that gives it a sort of kilkenny flavour but with out the sort of watered down effect.

 

[iralosavic]

I've found this thread helpful so far, but just wanted to summarise/clarify.

I'm planning on brewing a Coopers Mexican Cerveza as my maiden brew using cornelius kegs (which I'm getting on the weekend). If the included yeast is not a larger yeast, I will source one.

I have a 25L plastic fermenter and a 23L glass carboy and two fridges at my disposal, either one can have an stc1000 hooked up.

1. How long and at what temp should I leave it in primary (plastic)?
2. I've read that when fermenting a lager yeast, you need to increase to a certain temp in order to completely eliminate some bad biproduct.
- When, for how long, and at what temp should I do this?
3. I'm going to bulk/naturally prime the keg instead of force carb (as I'll only have a 16g disposable co2 charger at the time), so should I siphon to the Carboy for cold conditioning and then wate until racking to the keg to mix with the priming solution?

I'm just a little vague on the steps in my particular setup...


Cheers

EDIT: Also, if I cold condition for 6 weeks prior to carbonating, will the priming solution still work? Do you still put the temp back up to 20c for a week or so to allow the dextrose to prime?

 

[Nick JD]

While lagering a kit beer with improve it immeasurably, it's still a little like putting lipstick on a pig.

Sounds like you have some great gear there - how about upping the quality of your primary product?

 

[manticle]

Have you ever put lipstick on a pig though Nick?

Not bad at all my friend, not bad at all.

 

[kymba]

this one time, it was a giraffe involved but they all come from africa so hey, i was like relax g-raff x 1 yeah

turns out the giraffe does not do sarcasm like we would; and would prefer to eat your face off - even though they are herbivores!!!

good luck to the next pioneers of giraffle

 

[iralosavic]

While lagering a kit beer with improve it immeasurably, it's still a little like putting lipstick on a pig.

Sounds like you have some great gear there - how about upping the quality of your primary product?

Hey Nick - are you the bloke that wrote up the BIAB thread? I'm planning on moving to BIAB as soon as finances allow.The investment in my current gear has put such a time back a few months, but I feel that some experience with cheap extracts will come in handy first so I can avoid ruining AG brews!

To clarify, I haven't actually brewed beer before. I have borrowed some equipment off a friend and he will be guiding me through extract brewing so I can get my head around it and general sanitisation etc

I want to employ techniques like lagering as I want to learn as much as I can that I can transfer to AG batches later down the track. I will have 4 kegs, so I'm going to try to do the first one plain extract, second extract with some light alterations, third a partial and by the fourth hopefully I'll be ready to BIAB.

Cheers

 

[iralosavic]

These are my notes so far, but I'm not sure I've nailed the concept yet.

1. Ferment at 10-16c (depends on yeast strand) for 2 weeks (lager ferments slower)
2. Raise temp to 18c for 3 days (diacetyl rest)
3. Transfer to an impermeable vessle (ie glass carboy) and ruduce temp by 5c a day
4. When temp is as low as possible (ie 1c in a good fridge) allow to sit for 4-6 weeks
5. Raise to 18-20c for a day or two
6. Put bulk priming sugar solution in bottom of keg
7. Add 1/3 packet of dried yeast to carboy
8. Rack to keg and store at 18-20c for up to a week
9. Return to cellar temps until ready to refrigerate and serve.

I've left out organising the yeast starter, as it deserves its own thread really! I get unconfident as I get towards the carbonation end of things. It will be a lot simpler when I can force carbonate.

 

[manticle]

No real need to rack to glass - permeability is really only an issue if aging for a long time (eg multiple months).
No real need for the second raising to 18 - 20 (step 5)
No real need in my experience to add any more yeast. 4-6 weeks should carb up OK and you've just spent 4-6 weeks trying to drop yeast out.

 

[iralosavic]

a. No real need to rack to glass - permeability is really only an issue if aging for a long time (eg multiple months).
b. No real need for the second raising to 18 - 20 (step 5)
c. No real need in my experience to add any more yeast. 4-6 weeks should carb up OK and you've just spent 4-6 weeks trying to drop yeast out.

a. Roger. I thought leaving behind some sediment in a secondary transfer would aide the clarity, but if it's bottom fermenting yeast, would this ruin carbonation later? Reason I still ask is because moving to the carboy would also free up the primary for an ale or something.
b. I thought there might be a need to raise from 1 to 18c before adding priming solution, but I suppose I could just allow it to raise after mixing it all.
c. Yes I will be naturally carbing (using a bulk priming calculator) by preboiling a dextrose solution and putting it in the bottom of the destination keg. How will the sugar result in carbonation if the yeast is dropped out?

 

[mikk]

I've had great results using S-05 yeast with the Coopers Cerveza/brew booster 2, at 17-18C. Just thought you might like to know, as it'll save you a lot of hassle with the whole lagering thing!
In the case of a beer like the Coopers cerveza, i think the only benefit lagering would give is to drop the yeast out...

 

[manticle]

a. Roger. I thought leaving behind some sediment in a secondary transfer would aide the clarity, but if it's bottom fermenting yeast, would this ruin carbonation later? Reason I still ask is because moving to the carboy would also free up the primary for an ale or something.
b. I thought there might be a need to raise from 1 to 18c before adding priming solution, but I suppose I could just allow it to raise after mixing it all.
c. Yes I will be naturally carbing (using a bulk priming calculator) by preboiling a dextrose solution and putting it in the bottom of the destination keg. How will the sugar result in carbonation if the yeast is dropped out?

Racking is fine. Sorry I meant there's no need to use glass rather than plastic (no harm either though if you have the vessel available).

No need to raise the temp for bulk priming at all.

Not all the yeast will drop out - some remains in suspension even after 4+ weeks in the cold.