Is my local homebrew shop giving me good advice?

[Xodaru]

Hi Everyone,

I've been lurking here awhile but since I got a question I thought it was time to finally register.

I only started kit brewing probably a bit more than 2 months ago. Learnt some things about it along the way especially not to ever trust the yeast that comes with the cans (my first failure with almost dead yeast).

I have a Mangrove Jack's craft series pouch American IPA with dry hops currently fermenting for what is now two weeks. My local homebrew store told me this was a faster one than the previous black rock pale ale can I brewed.
After 7 days give or take a day or two I'm supposed to put the dry hops in, but only if the reading has dropped under 1020. Well after 7 days it was 1035. Now after two weeks it is 1026 (decreasing around 1-2 a day very slowly). It's still not ready to put the dry hops in. It's been at a consistent 18-19 degrees in temperature. I guess I'll leave it go into it's third week for now.

When I got this kit they advised against purchasing yeast because it's apparently trustworthy in these kits.
They also advised to use brew enhancer #15.

Yesterday I went back to the store to purchase my next kit - Black Rock amber ale. Low and behold the store recommended # 15 brew enhancer again. This time when I got home I googled a bit and found that this appears to be more suited for lager.
Is the store giving me bad advise on what brew enhancer to use?

It's been the same staff member telling me to use #15. The one time the store told me to use #3 was with the pale ale that was successful and that was a different staff member who gave that advise..

I'm slightly confused with the different brew enhancers available now :|

 

[koshari]

firstly concerning kit yeast, i have never had a problem with it, but then again the only cans i get are high turn over and i pull the kit yeast off it immediately and store them in a container in the frige in order of the julian calender date, always using the oldest first, doing this with some farmed yeast and buying a few extra packet yeasts has enabled me to build up a nice cache of sachets,

secondly concerning IPA/pacific/summer kits, i have tried a couple earlier on and basically given up on them, IMO AIPA means dryhopping, and a kit cannot replicate that flavour. so for my summer/pacific/Aipa styles i just use a normal ale can as a base and add crystal, LME/Wheat and dry hop any of the many hop combinations available..

regarding the local brew shop recommending these kits/brew enhancers, this is pretty much what their buisness is based on, i dont have an issue with this because before i started buying crystal, LME, roasted barley and Wheat extracts, this is what i learned with.

Regarding the store having different people suggesting different things its a bit like this forum, there isn’t a really a wrong or right way, they all just result in different outcomes, Ian's spreadsheet is a good way for you to get a rough idea of what a brew will turn out like with known ingredients, from that keeping a log and tweaking will then fine tune these into more compatible outcomes regarding your own preferences.

you state your confused with brew enhancers, i say just use LME instead.

 

[altone]

If it's the BE #15 I think you mean it's mainly a mix of glucose corn syrup and light malt.
Probably better than pure dextrose in ANY beer although I'd use 100% LME unless the specific beer required other sugars.

So not exactly bad advice. although koshari's suggestions might make a nicer beer but a bit more work involved.

Mangrove Jacks do some very good yeasts but I'm not certain what they pack with their various kits.
Some lesser kit providers use the same yeast regardless of the beer style.

If your LHBS can't confirm the yeast strain either - buy a packet of a suitable yeast.
It's only 5 or 6 bucks and at least you'll know it's the right style yeast for the brew.

Regardless, you'll end up with beer and can improve on it next time.

 

[pcmfisher]

Even Black Rock recommends a better yeast for their tins.

 

[Rocker1986]

Something's wrong with that yeast, it should have pretty much fully fermented out in 7 days, not still be sitting at 1.026 after bloody two weeks. Try bumping up the temp a few degrees, maybe give the yeast cake in the bottom a very gentle stir up, to try to get it going quicker.

 

[Xodaru]

Thanks for the feedback everyone.
I might try some LME for my next batch. Is it a good general rule to use LME instead of the dry extracts unless otherwise stated then? Never tried it yet so it's all a learning curve for me but I have been eyeing off the cans.

I'll see if I can warm it up a little bit to see what happens. Is there a general cut off point for how long I leave a brew in the fermenter for?

 

[Xodaru]

Did another measurement, no change in gravity reading. That's actually 3 days running.
I'm kinda upset at myself not insisting on purchasing yeast separately now. The yeast that was in the kit was M44 US West Coast 10g

Gave it a gentle stir up as suggested to see what happens but I'm starting to think this is another lost cause.

 

[aster1]

The M44 US West Coast is a good yeast but perhaps a bit sluggish at first. US-05 is the equivalent yeast, Ive used both and they perform equally well, US-05 however has been in the market a lot longer if that makes any difference.

If you going to use Liquid Malt Extract remember 1kg of Dry Malt is equal to approx 1.2kg of Liquid Malt.

Your ferment sounds like it has stalled for some reason, it may or may not be the yeast, but there are too many variables to ever be certain, if it hasnt gotten down to at least 1.015 then pitch another yeast.
I like to hydrate the yeast first if im re-pitching, therefor I know the yeast is active before i pitch it in the wort, if it then fails I know its probably the wort not the yeast that is the issue... thats my logic anyways.

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/rehydrating-dry-yeast/

 

[koshari]

Is it a good general rule to use LME instead of the dry extracts unless otherwise stated then?

Dry extract is 100% evaporated barley malt so contains no moisture, therefore there is a ratio of how much dry malt compared to canned extract you use, i think 1-1.2kg of Dry extract equates to a 1.4kg can. Ian's spreadsheet has all this info in it.
https://aussiehomebrewer.com/threads/kit-and-extract-beer-spreadsheet.29655/

Other things like those beer enhancers mentioned earlier contain other ingredients like dextrose (basically corn sugar) and the like because they are cheaper.

Something's wrong with that yeast, it should have pretty much fully fermented out in 7 days, not still be sitting at 1.026 after bloody two weeks. Try bumping up the temp a few degrees, maybe give the yeast cake in the bottom a very gentle stir up, to try to get it going quicker.

it may or may not be the yeast, but there are too many variables to ever be certain,

I tried a black rock kit pacific ale that never flattened out below 1020, it did have a massive SG as well, ( above 1050 IIRC.) so i suspect some of these kits possibly have a lot of non fermentables in them. i actually had a 2nd crack at the same kit and similar results.

but 3 weeks to ferment the fermentables sounds a bit on the longish side to me as well.

 

[Rocker1986]

Another reason for rehydrating yeast if pitching into what is now beer is the alcohol present. I don't know how true it is but I have read somewhere that the dry yeast pretty much dies instantly if pitched straight into an alcoholic environment. Rehydrating yeast in water doesn't really tell you anything about it being active either.

 

[Xodaru]

*please delete*

 

[mongey]

I have made a few of those craft pouches and I think the yeast has always been from their craft line ,which are good yeast

have you checked your hydro meter ?what was the OG of this one ?

but a black rock Pacific ale kit OG over 1050 sounds high for a standard tin and kilo .your meter may be out of whack


and I ended up always using straight DME instead of the brew boosters . beers just seemed to turn out better

 

[Xodaru]

The OG was 1051. I do have two hydrometers. I started using the second one to confirm two tests ago but the results are the same.

I do have some us-05 in the fridge so I might try rehydrating and pitching as suggested tonight. When pitching do you just pour it straight into the foam layer or do you clear out a small section to pour into?
Will it end up being another two weeks of activity in the fermenter?

EDIT: After getting home from work the gravity reading is now 1020.
Seems that little shakeup may have helped? Should I just leave it then for now?

 

[Beeroclock]

Dry extract is 100% evaporated barley malt so contains no moisture, therefore there is a ratio of how much dry malt compared to canned extract you use, i think 1-1.2kg of Dry extract equates to a 1.4kg can. Ian's spreadsheet has all this info in it.
https://aussiehomebrewer.com/threads/kit-and-extract-beer-spreadsheet.29655/

Other things like those beer enhancers mentioned earlier contain other ingredients like dextrose (basically corn sugar) and the like because they are cheaper.





I tried a black rock kit pacific ale that never flattened out below 1020, it did have a massive SG as well, ( above 1050 IIRC.) so i suspect some of these kits possibly have a lot of non fermentables in them. i actually had a 2nd crack at the same kit and similar results.

but 3 weeks to ferment the fermentables sounds a bit on the longish side to me as well.

Do Black Rock have a Pacific Ale? I couldn’t find it anywhere - did you mean Morgan’s?

 

[mr_wibble]

Another reason for rehydrating yeast if pitching into what is now beer is the alcohol present. I don't know how true it is but I have read somewhere that the dry yeast pretty much dies instantly if pitched straight into an alcoholic environment. Rehydrating yeast in water doesn't really tell you anything about it being active either.

When dry yeast first rehydrates in whatever medium, basically that liquid is directly absorbed into the cell. Because the yeast is dry, the cell walls are not in a fit state to properly protect the cell.

Putting dry yeast directly into wort can result in a 50% reduction in yeast viability [1].
When pitching into beer, I would guess that the ingress of alcohol into the cell during rehydration causes an extra reduction in viability.

It's best-practice to rehydrate dry yeast in a small amount of warm water (35-41C the temp is important), there are plenty of guides on this. And yes, some yeast packets say to sprinkle directly onto wort - it's your beer, do what you want. Personally I'll side with the yeast experts.

[1] "Yeast" (2010). Chris White, Jamil Zainasheff

 

[koshari]

Do Black Rock have a Pacific Ale? I couldn’t find it anywhere - did you mean Morgan’s?

Sorry. Just checked my log. It was if fact a black rock nz golden ale kit.

 

[mongey]

Fermentis themselves say if there is any reduction pitching dry direct into wort it will be 3 to 6% max.

from their site

I've read that rehydrating in wort as opposed to water can decrease viability: is this true?
No, that’s not true. There is the potential for a slight loss in viability (approximately 3-6%) but that will not impact the fermentation at all.

 

[nvs-brews]

Maybe try using the Diayctl method to try get the current brew down. In other words, slowly raise the temp up to around the 22 mark. This may help it finish it.

2nd, adding dry hops to it while fermenting is recommended.

3rd as mentioned, swap out BE for just straight DME/LME

4th always buy aftermarket yeast, keep that extract can yeast for later on when you get into grain. Adding it to the boil (approx 15min from end) works as a good yeast nutrient.

 

[Rocker1986]

Fermentis themselves say if there is any reduction pitching dry direct into wort it will be 3 to 6% max.

from their site

I've read that rehydrating in wort as opposed to water can decrease viability: is this true?
No, that’s not true. There is the potential for a slight loss in viability (approximately 3-6%) but that will not impact the fermentation at all.

Wort contains no alcohol yet. That's the difference. I've only pitched into beer once, and I can't remember whether or not I re-hydrated the yeast in water first but either way the SG didn't move at all.

 

[mongey]

Wort contains no alcohol yet. That's the difference. I've only pitched into beer once, and I can't remember whether or not I re-hydrated the yeast in water first but either way the SG didn't move at all.

True dat. Fair point