Infections - Over Rated?

[wimbymoonshine]

Hey all,

I have had a bit of a think about the real risk of infection. I had a belgian wit in primary for 7 days, definately completed fermentation. I took a sample in the hydrometer jar and left the jar sitting on the table in my bedroom for i'd say 7days now. This afternoon i thought, hmmm that looks nice, worth a taste.
It tasted fine to me!

So question is, this has been sitting unprotected, near a window, in a clear jar for 7 days and no infection, no light struck skunky smells/tastes. How real is the rist of infection and how delicate really is the wort?

I've never had an infection in my wort to date, but i am anal about sanitisation. What about you? Anyone have any infections they'd like to share? :icon_vomit:

Cheers

 

[InCider]

Hey all,

I have had a bit of a think about the real risk of infection. I had a belgian wit in primary for 7 days, definately completed fermentation. I took a sample in the hydrometer jar and left the jar sitting on the table in my bedroom for i'd say 7days now. This afternoon i thought, hmmm that looks nice, worth a taste.
It tasted fine to me!

So question is, this has been sitting unprotected, near a window, in a clear jar for 7 days and no infection, no light struck skunky smells/tastes. How real is the rist of infection and how delicate really is the wort?

I've never had an infection in my wort to date, but i am anal about sanitisation. What about you? Anyone have any infections they'd like to share? :icon_vomit:

Cheers

Hey Wimby - I've had a couple - before I had temp control. And when you brew in a shed where each day is 32+ degrees, it's hard to leave samples around for the possums and bushrats! :lol:

InCider.

 

[Stuster]

Definitely not over-rated. I've certainly had a number of infections.

The sample you left on the shelf though, was that of the original beer before fermentation or the fermented beer? If the second, the alcohol would have protected it from germs and nasties. The skunking issue is definitely due to the lack of sun. (I did grow up in Britain before you get worried.)

 

[Darren]

I would have thought a Belgian should have tasted funky?

cheers

Darren

 

[pint of lager]

Every beer is infected, it just depends with what and to what degree.

As soon as you expose the brew to air, you have spores, dust, bacteria and germs dropping in.

As soon as you pitch your yeast, it starts changing the conditions of the wort to make it unfavourable to some wild yeasts and infections. The pH drops, the dissolved oxygen is used and alcohol is produced.

Infections multiply at 10 times the rate of yeast, so it is very important to get your yeast in there working.

Finished wort still has plenty of long chain malty sugars that will provide a feast if the wrong infection ends up in your brew.

You may have been lucky and not had the right bug fall in your sg sample.

Have left sg samples behind the sink here and they tasted very skunked and funky, glad I didn't have 45 litres of similar beer.

Finished beer poured into a glass in the sun waiting to be consumed will start showing signs of skunk within 10 minutes.

Infection risk is a funny beast, some people seem to manage to avoid it, others take all the right steps and still get hit with infections.

 

[Stuster]

Also, to get picky (I've been waiting to throw this into the conversation for weeks), organisms in our wort is not infection (Darren?). According to the infallible wikipedia :unsure:

An infection is the detrimental colonization of a host organism by a foreign species.

So I guess we should start calling it contamination rather than an infection. (Can anybody with some real knowledge about this step in now?)

 

[kevnlis]

Well technicaly all of the organisms in our beer, classified as "infection" or "welcomed" can be broken into 2 categories, bacteria and fungi. Fungi covers mould and yeast, bacteria covers the rest. If your wort were not "infected" with something you would not get alcohol. That "something" is usually prefered to be yeast, though there are instances where bacteria is encouraged as well. I agree that the usual term "infection" should be refered to in a manor which suggests it was not meant to be there. I also agree it is over rated and occurs less than people think.

 

[Weizguy]

Not overrated!

Had many a well-tended beer go astray until I got a handle on where the grubby bits were, around my brew environment.

Now, the only problem is recognising any new bugs before they settle in.

I get this situation as my house is on the edge of a swamp (and sometimes in the swamp) and there is also plenty of flora (pollen, fungi) and fauna (rats, possums, wallaroos, kangas) to bring in fresh bugs.

So, don't be upset if your cool climate and lack of sun are failing to help out with your lack of contamination (not infection). Global warming and the hole in the ozone will take care of that soon enough.

Global Seth

 

[kevnlis]

I think I like you Les. But I must digress... I have a swamp in and around my garden as well. Bundaberg being mostly tropical I also grow fruit trees within a stones throw of my brewery. In over 4 years of brewing I have yet to get an "infection". I am far from overly cautious with my sanitisation... in fact I am far less anal than the average internet brewer claims to be! I use nothing more than the average person could get from Woolies other than Iodophor which is a new addition to my arsenal and I only use it beacause it is easier than my standard practice of bleach and vinegar. I think anyone that actually adheres to the basics of brewing and sanatisation will be fine in this department.

 

[Fents]

I've left OG wort in a hydro jar for three days and no shit it started fermenting, krausen and all so i just left it as an experiment. Was good after the krausen settled the hydrometer had dropped and i knew my brew was ready (still took a clean sample too...2 points of the other one.) altho about 1/4 had evoporated too. was i gonna taste it? no way, smelt like crap.

Never had to tip a brew though, touch wood.

 

[wimbymoonshine]

I've left OG wort in a hydro jar for three days and no shit it started fermenting, krausen and all so i just left it as an experiment. Was good after the krausen settled the hydrometer had dropped and i knew my brew was ready (still took a clean sample too...2 points of the other one.) altho about 1/4 had evoporated too. was i gonna taste it? no way, smelt like crap.

Never had to tip a brew though, touch wood.

Fents.... SOFT! you shoulda just blocked your nose and downed it! :icon_drunk:

I read somewhere that the moulds and bacteria that grow in wort are not harmful to humans. they may smell and taste like dingo doo but you can still have a swig (or 3) knowing you wont die.

On that note, i also remembered that i had a swig out of the hydro jar and left it sitting on the table. Woulda thought that a prime way of inducing infection would be from ones mouth. Still looks and smells ok... maybe time for another taste!

Next step, let the dog lick it and see if it goes funky!

 

[devo]

For some reason I get the metal image of a brewer waving a red hanky in the face of a raging bull! B) dunno why but?

 

[Tseay]

I understand that some infections can be subtle. I think it was Fix who pointed out that failure to get the desired malt profile in a finished beer can be down to infection.

 

[kevnlis]

I've left OG wort in a hydro jar for three days and no shit it started fermenting, krausen and all so i just left it as an experiment. Was good after the krausen settled the hydrometer had dropped and i knew my brew was ready (still took a clean sample too...2 points of the other one.) altho about 1/4 had evoporated too. was i gonna taste it? no way, smelt like crap.

Never had to tip a brew though, touch wood.

I never measure OG before pitching. I draw the hydro jar full after pitching the starter and allow that to feremnt out next to the brew. Always comes out with the same gravity and ferments at the same rate as it's big brother. Easier to take readings and you don't have to keep drawing samples off!

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

I understand that some infections can be subtle. I think it was Fix who pointed out that failure to get the desired malt profile in a finished beer can be down to infection.

In retrospect, I think that some brews that did not turn out as I thought *may* have been infected. I guess that like so many other things, there is a spectrum of infectious thingies that can feed on your brew. One might make the fermenter explode in a colourful shower of deadly, acidic liquid and another might just make it taste a bit off.

Perhaps the whole infection thing *is* over-rated. For mine, the amount of time and money you spend on sanitation is worthwhile insurance for the amount of time and money you spend on the rest.

 

[Kai]

I would have thought a Belgian should have tasted funky?

cheers

Darren

There's funk and there's funk.

Lager said it best... every homebrew is infected, it's the extent that matters.

 

[Wrenny]

Not at all overrated.

My first two AG's had major unwanted infections. Quite depressing really.

Luckily Ross pointed out to me that filters don't do squat to bacteria. Despite the filter saying that it removed 99.9% cryptosporidium and guardia (sp?), they actually tend to harbour a lot of bacteria. People on town water might not worry too much, because the constant flusing of chlorine kills them all (the bacteria that is, not the people). But for those of us drinking bird poo washed off their roof - Boil the Hell out of it.

Also, sugary water (ie wort) is great for infections. Less sugary alcaholic water is safer.


Cheers,
Wrenny

 

[pint of lager]

Over the years there have been some very informative threads about infections and tracking down the source.

Ray Mills' problem is a classic. No-one is going to question that he brews a top drop and knows an infection. He was troubled for a long time and finally tracked it down to his air around where he brews. He now brews no chill and the problem is gone.

A similar problem occurred with a kit brewer I know. He could not put down a brew in his kitchen, they always turned out phenolic. He moved his brewing operations to the laundry and his problem vanished.

Others have tracked the source to the dead space in their ball valves, infected keg regulators (yep, the beer had backed up into it years ago leaving a nice green mould) fermenter taps and various other spots. Common spots for newer brewers are o'rings in the lids, grommets and taps. These all need pulling apart and cleaning.

Tank water brewers take extra care with sanitation. The water may have a beautiful profile for a pilsner but is loaded with other stuff too. All water in ag is fine as it will be boiled for 90 minutes. It is any top up water or water for kit brewing that must be treated. Do remember that boiling removes dissolved oxygen, so airate well if used for fermentation in kits.

The problem with even very minor infections, some of the bugs create by products that we can detect at very low levels, in the ppm range. It just depends what drops in your brew. Infections multiply at a much greater rate than yeast, 10x was a figure I saw in an article. So if you have a minor infection at the start, it can quickly multiply and add extra off flavours before your yeast gets its act together.

Some people seem to have no infection problems with lax methods, some try their hardest and still have problems.

So pitch a good starter, or plenty of good quality dried yeast and get your brew working. Take appropriate steps for sanitation and cleaning.

After spending hours on a double batch of ag beer, I would hate to see it spoilt due to lack of sanitation.

 

[matti]

As true as the sky may be blue, POL
But sometimes the skies are Grey and its pouring down.

Infection or contamination is serious business and can be difficult to control depending on your environment.

Personally I am infected and thats has affected by brews lately :blink:
I'll explain.
I brew once a month and i haven't had an infection that has been detrimental to the final produce for 18 months.
Brewing in kitchen mostly....

Suddenly I get really involved and excited about brewing and try to fit in brew time whenever I can.
To be able to do this while having 3 kids with 2 of them training Tae Kwan DO twice a week yadidadada...
Plus SWMBO and shift work mor yadidada

I was sent to the garage.
This where I cant really control the environment. The air quality is somewhat impaired and I lost 25 L of October fest and now I am paranoid about my IPA one week and bottle and shite scared to bottle my APA partial which is CCing.
AAAARGHHHH


ps Has some got one of those Bubble that OLD Micheal Jackson sleeps in/??

 

[warrenlw63]

To be able to do this while having 3 kids with 2 of them training Tae Kwan DO twice a week yadidadada...

:lol: You wanna try it with a kid who's doing taekwondo 5-6 times a week. :wacko:

Funny part with me is when I moved my brewing to the garage and it's "far" from hermetically-sealed I've had less dodgy beers. That being said it could be an improvement in brewing techniques.

All you can really try and do Matti is keep the cleaning and sanitisation up to scratch. Also don't be tempted to leave wort uncovered for too long. It's probably a situation we all encounter now and then but I'm sure it'll only get better from there.

Hope you find the source.

Warren -