How much of your brewing salts are left in wort post mash?

[motman]

Hi all,
Curious about this, as I seem to be brewing some american pale ales with more of an English character to them despite modifying my (Brisbane north) water profile to that recommended for the style (2 - 3: 1 SO4:Cl ratio with 140 ppm Ca. Unfortunately the water here has around 70 - 100ppm HCO3 but the PH of mash has been 5.3 - 5.2).

When I was brewing extract and steeped grain, I was getting great hop character but in the all grain it's more like an english pale - which I like but not with american dry hop character!

I'm wondering if most of my brewing salts are being left in the grain / trub (I'm brewing BIAB and using a plate chiller), resulting in lower sulphate to chloride ratio?

The other thing I'm wondering is if the carbonates are the cause of the problem but I was under the impression that if you can achieve your target ph then that's not a problem?

I'm considering two options at this point:

1) using rain water from the water tank (a bit concerned about suburban heavy metals and dioxins, but thought one batch probably won't kill me and I can test the water if it's a winner)

2.) modifying water enough to achieve target mash ph and then adding more gypsum in the boil to ensure I have some sulphate in the beer to impact taste perception.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Merry Christmas and may you all find the rhetoric about home brew not giving hangovers to be true!


Recipes below for reference:

First one, really english in character, very cloudy at first I thought because of the malt and maybe not enough gypsum):

93% Perle Malt (thomas Fawcette)
7% Crystal 60
38 IBU, 15IBU Perle, 23 Cascade, Flavour and dry hop cascade additions
Water (added 10g Gypsum to 40l batch): 70ppm Ca, 8mg, 30Na, 115 SO4, 60Cl, 100 HCO3


Second, Very similar but slightly more bitter and clear
85% Barret Burston Ale Malt
3.8% Biscuit
3.8% Crystal
7.7% Light Dry Extract (getting rid of it)
40 IBU, 25 Magnum, the rest cascade including 2g/l dry hopped
Water, added 20g gypsum to 50l batch: : 100ppm Ca, 8mg, 30Na, 184 SO4, 60Cl, 100 HCO3

 

[manticle]

Drop out the carbonate if you can. Besides pH effects, they offer very little in the way of benefit to your brew.
Can you get your tank water analysed?

 

[motman]

??!! Where are all the water chemistry geeks? No ideas on this?

Hopefully you're all having too much fun away from phones and computers somewhere sunny... I'll have a crack with the tank water and a kolsch I think. Can't see where too much carbonate could have come from in the tanks!

Have a great new years all.

cheers,
Tom

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

1) using rain water from the water tank (a bit concerned about suburban heavy metals and dioxins, but thought one batch probably won't kill me and I can test the water if it's a winner)




Just spit in your mash...will take care of them pesky heavy metals and dioxins

 

[MHB]

When we are look at water chemistry the first thing to be aware of is that all salt additions are made up of two parts, they disassociate into Cations and Anions.
During both the mash and boil Calcium (and to some extent other Cations like Mg) are consumed. Calcium plays a lot of roles, its an enzyme cofactor, it protects Alpha Amylase from thermal denaturing, assists in hot and cold break formation and precipitation, is important in yeast nutrition and flocculation...

On the other hand the Anions unless they react chemically will pretty much survive into the finished beer (that's the Cl- SO4-- Carbonate and Hydrogen Carbonate...) (tho HCO3- will probably precipitate as chalk removing some of your Ca during the boil if not before). So there is a good chance that your turbidity could be a result of low Ca in the boil (you can add more to the kettle), there are other possibilities but I don't know enough about your process to comment.

If indeed your water has as much HCO3 as you say (and I would like to see you double check that) it would be in your interest to reduce it either by diluting with lower carbonate water, boiling the day before and racking off or by other chemical/physical means (ROMO is the best).

I know there is a lot of talk about water chemistry on AHB at present but a lot of it is I believe somewhat misdirected, it isn't a fix all, you can make very good beer in any water that complies with the relevant Australian standard for tap water (not that some beer styles would suit some waters better than others, or that water chemistry isn't important) and doing water additions wont make up for bad brewing processes - better to get them right first.

These might be a good read: - Residual Alkalinity illustrated A Guide to Brewing Water Treatment
Mark

 

[going down a hill]

Could the English character you're talking about have something to do with the temperature of your mash? Uk beers are typically mashed higher in the 60's where they're bigger bodied where the US beers are typically mashed in the lower 60's and drier.

I've been playing around with drier style beers this year and had had a big difference in the perceived style of beer.

 

[motman]

Well thanks ducatiboy... I always hawk a lugi or two up into my beer - I spose that could be why my wife won't try the stuff.

MHB, that's the kind of beer chemistry geek material I was after! Cheers! My interpretation is that yes, some of my calcium will go, unknown amounts of carbonate will remain and the only way to know how much is to test the water (post mash). I accept that my issues could well be because I'm a ***** brewer (three all grain brews in most likely) but since I can't put my finger on what I have done wrong in the last one or two, I'll eliminate water issues and see what that does. Personally from my insights from my brew club (who seem to have similarly mellow and cloudy beers) and my mates in melbourne (who seem to have hoppy, clear beers), water is seeming a pretty good fall-guy. Currently I am feeling like water is little understood in brewing other than those who brew good stuff know what to do with their water (and only their water!).

I'll check out your links and hope to gain a better understanding.

Going down a hill, I have tried 64 and 68 mash temps and got some difference but not in the hop character.. I did double the gypsum at the same time too, so not much knowing what was going on.

At this stage I'll go with the tank water and see what happens!

Cheers all,

 

[MHB]

Well the simplest answer (if your problem in Bi-Carbonate) would be to treat your water with a little Sulphuric Acid, that would convert any Carbonate into Sulphate and a bit of left over CO2.
Don't do this unless you have a decent pH meter and understand exactly how to balance an equation. A bit of Lactic Acid might be a safer option, the resulting salt would be Calcium Lactate, which is a really powerful buffer, with a touch of excess Lactic Acid it buffers at around 5.2

Lactic acid accounts for about 90% of the native acidity in pale malt, so adding a bit more will mimic the process that is occurring anyway, just supplying enough extra Lactic acid to get rid of all the Carbonate.

I have been playing around with Lactic Acid / Calcium Lactate buffer mixes with very good results.
Mark

 

[manticle]

Isn't sulphuric acid really dangerous stuff to store and handle?

 

[TheWiggman]

It is manticle. The water treatment plants I've seen typically treat water with hydrochloric acid and liquid chlorine to adjust it to potable standard.
Signs and special storage methods galore. And with good cause. This applies to bulk quantities of it though, but I can't imagine sulfuric acid wouldn't be without some issues.

 

[MHB]

Any strong acid has its issues, but that doesn't stop people using very strong Hydrochloric Acid to clean concrete and bricks around the house.
As brewers we work with boiling wort and that has killed people in breweries, as has dust explosions in malt stores and mill rooms...

Unless you go to a lab supplier and get seriously strong H2SO4 its odds on that you will end up with about 30% Sulphuric, which wont flash boil when you add it to water, eliminating one of the most serious (and common) risks when dealing with strong Sulphuric.
We are only looking to remove 75-100 ppm of Bi-Carbonate so if you treated 40 L of water (40*100/1000=4g) as the FWT is around 61 (4/61= 0.0655 Moles) 30% H2SO4 contains around 4.5 Moles/L we need 0.0655/4.5 ~ 15mL (all rough numbers and from memory) you would really need more exact information to work out the precise amount by its going to be close to 15mL.

Brew with your thinking cap on and your eyes open and very little is likely to go wrong - but be careful.
Mark

 

[motman]

Lactic acid sounds like a good option too, cheers

 

[manticle]

Any strong acid has its issues, but that doesn't stop people using very strong Hydrochloric Acid to clean concrete and bricks around the house.
As brewers we work with boiling wort and that has killed people in breweries, as has dust explosions in malt stores and mill rooms...

Brew with your thinking cap on and your eyes open and very little is likely to go wrong - but be careful.
Mark

Of course. There are many hazards in brewing and it pays to be aware and informed. I mention it only because everything I've read about the stuff suggests it's horribly hazardous and I've not seen it available from hbs (unlike phosphoric or lactic).

I have access to various lab grade chemicals through work as I'm sure many do so it's worth mentioning any risks.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

I have access to various lab grade chemicals through work as I'm sure many do so it's worth mentioning any risks.

Getting busted is always a risk.... h34r: