House Infection?

[chromakey]

Hi guys.

I can only assume I have a house infection, but I will try to give a brief rundown of what has happened over the past few months that brings me to this conclusion. (I live in an apartment in Melbourne)

I started out just after xmas with a brewcraft starter brewery kit. I read through my entire "brewing crafts" book that came with the kit before I started.

Cleaned all of the equipment with BrewClean, and then sanitised all of the equipment with Brewshield no rinse sanitiser.

I then followed the instructions for the Cascade Pale Ale kit included. Everything went along smoothly, fermentation started within about 24hrs, and finished after a week. I have a swamp cooler system set up to keep temps around 20c

The dates on the yeast and can were well before the use by date.

When I went to bottle this beer, i had a quick sample. It was disgusting. Clearly a strong sour acidic flavour and smell, with the smell burning your nose. Didn't taste anything even close to green flat beer.

I am 100% sure my cleaning process was spot on, and the only thing I could really see that 'might' make a difference to a batch was the water. I used water straight from the tap.

I thoroughly cleaned all of the equipment before I attempted to brew a new batch.

I tried a Coopers Pale Ale kit as it was dirt cheap and I wouldn't be losing too much if it didn't work out. I also used bottled water for the entire batch. Including the water used to rinse and make up the sanitiser (i boiled the bottled water).

After following the same process as before, the beer turned out sour, acidic and undrinkable.

A friend of mine had a complete coopers home brew kit that he had never used, so he brought that around and we tried to make a coopers real ale with it.

We used all of the coopers cleaning products for this kit and equipment, and used bottled water. We even brewed this batch in the laundry, rather than the kitchen.

This batch turned out even more acidic and sour than the last 2. I also took a sample down to the local BrerwCraft shop to get their input. No doubt about it, it was infected. And they couldn't really pick out anything wrong with the process I had followed.

I have brewed beer a little bit in the past (about 4 years ago) and never had any problems like this. Basically, I was hoping some of you guys might be able to see something here I may have missed. Or is it likely I have a 'house infection'

Cheers for taking the time to read this novel
Brett.

 

[scott_penno]

Hi Brett,

After sanitation, did anything come in contact with the fermenter or wort? As an example, I've read in one thread about someone rinsing with sanitiser and then drying their fermenter with something like a tea-towell. How do you take your hydrometer samples? Do you use an airlock and what liquid do you put in your airlock? I think it's likely to be something process related but beyond that - not sure. Where abouts in Melbourne are you?

sap.

 

[outbreak]

I have all sorts of stuff in my kitchen thanks to room mates leaving food out and going moldy and I have not had an infection yet. Is your fermented submersed while fermenting? Maybe some water is getting in through the tap? Maybe use wet towels wrapped up around the fermenter?

Really need a step by step break down to find any faults.

 

[pcmfisher]

That's weird.

Try doing a batch or two round at your mates place.

Give all your gear a good nuke with a strong bleach solution first and rinse thoroughly.

 

[petesbrew]

Yeah, how is the swamp cooler setup? Submersible?
As stated, maybe replace with wet towels wrapped around it.
Maybe keep trying with cheap kits until you work out what's going wrong.

 

[felten]

Ditch the brewshield, it has a used by date, pickup some starsan or iodophor.

 

[petesbrew]

Ditch the brewshield, it has a used by date, pickup some starsan or iodophor.

pft, even bleach (NOT lemon scented).... just rinse it a lot.

 

[chromakey]

Hi Sappas. Nothing came in contact with the wort or fermenter after the no rinse. I put the lid on the fermenter straight after the no rinse and left it on until i started adding the can contents to the fermenter. I also used an airlock, and i put vodka in it. I am located in South Yarra.

Outbreak, the fermenter was not submerged. I had it wrapped in a damp towel with a fan blowing on it. I can do a more specific step by step in my next post if you think that will help?

Pcmfisher, that is my next plan

Petesbrew - just a damp towel with a fan was my process.

Felten, I will follow your advice.

 

[Bizier]

I suggest ramping your cleaning and sanitation regime. Even if you think it is overkill, that is precisely what you want (pun intended). At least it is not a Brett infection. Seriously, I must have sired illegitimate spawn at some stage with the rate of my paternal humour.

I do not meant to be condescending if you have done any of the following, but here is my suggestion:

Mix up your lines of attack (pH - both high and low, temperature, and also the germ-poisons in your sanitiser)

Be sure to disassemble all parts of taps, lids, airlocks and whatever else.

Soak ALL of your equipment in cleaner, and then rinse well with boiling water, ensuring sufficient contact time to pasteurise your gear. I am one of the cheap bastards that use sodium percarbonate (unscented nappisan) as a cleaner. I just looked up Brew Clean, and it should do this job well, being a percarbonate based cleaner. I used to also add the cheapest unscented dishwasher powder to my wash solution to increase the caustic-ness (what is the opposite of acidity?)

After the boiling rinse, do a full-volume soak with sanitiser and leave it for a good amount of time. So chuck all of your gear in the fermenter, and have it overflowingly full, so that it gets into the threads on the lid and everything, obviously put this in a sink or something. Some people even switch between starsan and iodophor. I love starsan.

Use boiled and cooled water to make up the rest of your volume for your brews.

Everyone's kitchen and laundry is covered in stuff that would love to have a go at your wort, it is just whether you give it a chance to get into your gear.

Also make sure you do whatever you can to ensure that your wort is coved when you are working on brew day, that also means your fermenter prior to receiving wort dust (covered in microorganisms) falls downward when there is no breeze, so make sure it is not falling into your beer where possible.

The last step is to go Howard Hughes and put tissue boxes on your feet.

ED: umm, what all the other people said. I started the reply ages ago sorry.

 

[chromakey]

Ok, this is my step by step run down -

1. I washed all the gear with Brewshield. (pulled the tap apart on second and third attempts to clean - I removed and cleaned rubber seal on lid also. I even sprayed the kit cans before soaking them in the hot water) Sprayed it on, left it for 5 minutes. (Wiped the fermenter with a new soft Chux to get off the muck on the second and third attempts.) Rinsed it off with tap water. (Rinsed with boiled bottled water on the second and third attempts).

2. Used no rinse sanitiser on all the gear. (Mixed this using boiled bottled water on 2nd and third attempts)

3. Soaked the kit can in cleaned plastic container with boiled water and no rinse.

4. Opened can with cleaned and santised new can opener. Tipped it in the fermenter. Filled can with hot tap water (boiled bottled water on 2nd and 3rd attempt) and stirred with spoon, tipped in fermenter. Tipped in the bag of brew enhancer (opened with a new cleaned and sanitised pair of scissors)

5. Stirred well with clean and sanitised spoon. Topped up with tap water. (boiled bottled water and 2nd and 3rd occasion)

6. Pitched Yeast. Put on clean and sanitised lid. Plugged in the clean and sanitised airlock with vodka added to it.

7. Wrapped the fermenter in a damp towel and pointed a fan on it.

8. Did my hydro readings by removing the airlock and then using the fermenter tap to fill my tube. Sprayed the airlock with no rinse on the bottom before plugging it back in.

 

[chromakey]

Thank you Bizier. A few things you mention, like rinsing in boiling hot water is something I will try.

Also, when i have used the no rinse, I have only been mixing up a few litres worth in the fermenter, soaking the lid seal, spoon, airlock etc in it for a few minutes, then taking them out, placing the lid back on, and shaking the crap out of it to cover the inside of the fermenter and the lid. I will try using a full fermenter worth of sanitiser next time to give it a better soak.

 

[Bizier]

Sounds like you are paranoid enough... A thorough clean with a high concentration of your brew wash stuff and then a soak with starsan or iodophor should work wonders.

Also ensure you are pitching enough happy, healthy yeast to outcompete any other organisms.

BTW nice username. Are you a compositor or something?

 

[chromakey]

Sounds like you are paranoid enough... A thorough clean with a high concentration of your brew wash stuff and then a soak with starsan or iodophor should work wonders.

Also ensure you are pitching enough happy, healthy yeast to outcompete any other organisms.

BTW nice username. Are you a compositor or something?

Cheers mate.

In regards to the yeast, what do you recommend? Should I be using a starter? I have just been sprinkling the dry yeast on top of the wort until now.

The username is something I have been using for a long time, from back when I started doing work experience at a local community TV station.

 

[sav]

You could try brewing nude if all else fails
sav

 

[HoppingMad]

Some thoughts:

- Brewclean. No idea whether this is rinse or no-rinse. If you didnt wash the cleaner off thoroughly with water, the residue could have introduced a flavor issue. If the active ingredient is Sodium Percarb it should do a good job cleaning but you need to rinse it well till all the foam is gone. Not rinsing some products can introduce phenyol/plastic/rubbery flavours.
- Brewshield. Use this all the time. Great product, no probs there. I dont use this as my main sanitizer though normally. I tend to use household bleach and rinse thoroughly, but if youre using it to directions it should be fine.
- Cascade yeast. Cascade kits have had flavor issues with their yeasts in the past (despite use-by dates). The problem may well not lie with your clean/sanitise but with using a substandard kit yeast that is throwing off bad flavours. Its happened to me with Cascade, but Im no longer a kit brewer so can no longer comment on their range. My posts regarding Spicy Ghost are well known here.
- The quality of your water shouldnt affect the flavor unless you rely on something like dam or well water. Most of us use tap water here without issue and many dont treat our brew water at all and knock out great beer. Id discount this one unless youre convinced your local water supply arent up to scratch.
- Coopers Products Coopers stuff is adequate for cleaning but I wouldnt recommend any of them for sanitizing. Particularly anything that has Sodium Metabisulphate written on it. That stuff wont sterilize the way a simple bleach and boil water can.
- The issue may be heat related - Where do you ferment? Is it near a lit window? A hot water pipe, a dryer or washing machine? Any heat and light source in your fermenting space can really arse up your brew. Remove these variables if you can.

My advice:
1. Get out the gear, clean it with whatever cleaner you have used, be thorough and get in under the seal in the lid, undo the tap and clean it there.
2. Get household bleach, use it on everything then rinse.
3. Boil water in a kettle or pot, then pour that over all your gear.
4. Do one more batch if you get the same result then you have a house wild yeast problem.

I have had shocking infections previously but 'Bleach and Boil' is a great (and cheap) way to remove this issue. Give it a go.

Hopper.

 

[chromakey]

You could try brewing nude if all else fails
sav

Haha I might try that next.

 

[Camo1234]

Mate if you are trying to find out what your issue is the only way to do it is a series of elimination.

You feel that your house is the issue so first step is to try a brew at your mates place... if it is still crap then you can rule your house out... I would do one at your mates place and one at your place and do exactly the same process and see what the difference is. You may find that you get a different ferment temp at your mates place so if its good and the one from your place is bad it will most likely be the temp that it is fermenting at especially if you are boiling all the water that you use or using bottled water.

If the one at your mates place is still crap then try and change different things such as the yeast from the kit and go for a better yeast.

I would strongly recommend spending $150 on a second hand fridge and controller.. that will rule out the temp issue and will be the best investment you will make! Think of the money you will save from dodgey brews and the time that it takes and the pain... You will make your $150 back in no time!

Good Luck... Camo!

 

[Bizier]

Which yeast to use is a big kettle of fish, and it depends on what you are brewing. A very solid start, and the only dry yeast I keep on hand is US05 (American ale), which is clean and neautral. It is a good choice for your conditions because it handles a little warmer temperature better than others.

If you haven't already, you should read How to Brew by John Palmer, first ed is free on the net, but it is worth buying the latest book. I would suggest that many experienced brewers still keep it on hand for various info like charts and chemistry stuff. The book covers super basic extract brewing (not really kits) up to pretty advanced mash stuff, good for common problem solving too.

ED: I agree with the above about the fridge. But you should be able to brew at your place. We all have bacteria everywhere whether we like it or not, especially in the kitchen. I suggest if you are brewing hard up against your compost bin or a dirty toilet, then change location, but you should be able address your issue with your cleaning, sanitation and brewing procedure. By all means brew at your mate's place, but do it for social reasons, and resolve your infection problem before you do.

 

[Vitalstatistix]

Are you tasting the beer from the fermenter or from bottles or kegs?
If bottles the cause of your issues may reside there.

 

[raven19]

Maybe get your hands on some slurry or liquid yeast from a nearby fellow brewer (saves extra $$$ costs just incase it goess pear shaped), pitch a good amount to ensure active fermentation with minimal lag time.

Good luck with the next brew.