Horrible Taste. Tannins?

[buttersd70]

:icon_offtopic: Why use viniger at all if you are going to wash it off? Isnt diluted bleach by itself a good sanatiser?

No, diluted bleach is not a very effective microbial agen. The vinegar reduces the pH to the acid range, and this makes the most effective use of the hypochlorite in the bleach.The article linked to in my previous post explains it better than I could.

 

[katzke]

:icon_offtopic: Why use viniger at all if you are going to wash it off? Isnt diluted bleach by itself a good sanatiser?

Best to look at the original podcast or article, but acidified bleach is more effective at lower rates of use. In American English you use less bleach per unit of water and get the same effect. Using less bleach makes it easier to rinse and from what I have read does not impart that almost impossible to remove bleach smell. It is recommended by people that do not want to use commercial sanitizes and save a little money. A bottle of bleach over here big enough to treat a kids swimming pool is like a buck, a bottle of vinegar a bit more. I guess if I was to swab down the entire home brewery I would use the bleach. I have Iodaphor and StarSan so I use them for sanitizing my equipment.

 

[Darren]

Does anyone here know how they make vinegar?? If so do you think it is a good idea to use vinegar as a sanitiser (with or without bleach)??

cheers

Darren

 

[buttersd70]

Use white vinegar only, because it's distilled.

 

[Darren]

I say adding vinegar is just hypothetical wank. I work in a lab dealing with human pathogens and genetically modified organisms. Legislation states that benches, spills etc. only need to be swabbed with 0.1% hypochlorite. Never any mention of needing to acidify hypochlorite to be effective!!

Also, just had a look at my bottle of white vinegar in the kitchen. Seems there is a light dusting of "stuff" on the bottom of the container. If by some chance this is acetobacter then using it with your sanitiser would be problematic.

cheers

Darren

 

[buttersd70]

I make no claims to be an expert on such things; I only point to the information available. It's up to the individual to decide if it's valid, or a 'hypothetical wank'.
Perhaps you would care to send an email to Charlie Talley at 5 star to discuss whether or not its a wank?

 

[trevc]

As far as I'm concerned, it's already been tested and proven that acidified bleach is much more effective. A few quick searches make that quite apparent. However, the vinegar point that Darren raised seems pretty valid, especially considering how long some people leave that stuff sitting around. Judging by the look of my bottle, I'd say it's pretty old

 

[Darren]

Trev,

I do also agree that acidification of hydrochlorite adds to it effectiveness. If you carefully read the literature though you will see that rationale behind acidification is to reduce the minimum amount of hypochlorite used in each sanitising event (penny pinching commercial enterprises). On the HB level if you consider 10kg of dry chlorine costs $40. If you use 2 teaspoons in a fermenter as opposed to 1 teaspoon it does not make economic or microbiological sense to add "vinegar" to increase the effectiveness because it is pretty damn effective by itself. Just keep it away from stainless steel and you should be fine.

cheers

Darren

 

[Thirsty Boy]

You're right Darren, if you are going to have to rinse anyway, the vinegar is only a cost saving measure, more bleach would do the same thing.

I think the main reason that the acidified bleach thing is a good idea for homebrewers, isn't the "nuke it to hell" strong version - its for being able to use it as a no-rinse sanitiser. By acidifying a really quite dilute solution of hypochlorite, you make it both effective enough to use as a sanitiser and low enough in concentration for the bleach to not contribute off flavours.

I regularly use the 1oz each of bleach & vinegar to 5G of water mix - as a no-rinse sanitiser. Its seems (in as much as I haven't had infection issues) to be effective and it definitely doesn't introduce chlorohenyl off flavours (not just my tastebuds - comps and pro-brewers)

Worrying about any acetobactor in the vinegar is a bit silly though ... they are all about to be immersed in a very effective sanitising solution. You either trust the sanitising properties of the solution, or you don't. If its the former, the acetobactor are screwed anyway - If its the latter, you shouldn't be using that solution as your sanitiser in the first place.

Still, if you have any other acid about the place - why not use that and play it safe?

 

[kram]

Before you added the yeast?

Yeah I didn't add anything, the lack of an airtight seal on the pots allowed wild yeasties to get in. Hence why this whole concept of no-chilling in the kettle baffles me, considering people get all uppity about the 200ml of oxygen headspace in a no-chill cube.

 

[Darren]

Thirsty boy,

Why would you add an organic acid (acetic) to chlorine?? I suggest the chlorine will spend more effort acting on the acid itself than on any contaminating organisms. To me this seems like the biggest fault in the "vinegar theory"

Also, strong acid and chlorine will emit chlorine gas, which if inhaled, will be akin to smoking two packets of ciggies a day for fourty years, in two seconds. 8(

Probably best for the homebrewer to stick with a slightly higher concentation of chlorine than attempting mixing chemicals that most have no idea about which they are dealing 8>0

cheers

Darren

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Adults not children are into homebrewing - surely they can be effectively told that they need to dilute the bleach in the water before they add the vinegar. If not, well Darwin had an interesting theory about that sort of thing.

Lots of people like to use bleach to sanitise because its cheap, lots of people think that no-rinse sanitisers are preferable to ones that need to be rinsed. It seems that you can have the best of both worlds. And thats of interest to a lot of people.

No matter whether you think that it counter intuitive, or not necessary to add vinegar to a bleach solution, the fact is that it produces an effective no-rinse sanitiser that is extraordinarily cheap and can be made from stuff most people have in the cupboard. My experience tells me so, the experience of quite a few others does too, and the public advice of a leading manufacturer of brewing sanitizers adds weight to that experience.

I understand your points, I even think you are right. It just doesn't matter thats all, because the sanitising mixture in question - works.

Anyway this is all fairly off topic, so we should probably call it quits and just hope that the OP solves his problem one way or the other. I'll stay mum from here on in unless there's more news on the OP's brew.

 

[Darren]

Last one from me too. No rinse bleach solution. You have to be joking surely?? You must rinse after using bleach as chlorophenols are the most vile tasting compounds in beer.

cheers

Darren

 

[Tim]

Also, how much money are you really saving by using bleach as opposed to a brweing or dairy specific sanitizer such as iodophor. A 100ml bottle of conc iodophor is about $10, and lasts about a year if you brew every fortnight. For all the money that you spend on quality ingredients, I just don't see how you can justofy being a tightass when it comes to cleaning.

 

[katzke]

Hate to keep this thread off topic but was looking for recommendations on what version of 300 stainless to use for fitting on a converted keg and found this.

http://www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer/brewcorr.txt

It is a long article about corrosion in brewing equipment. But has importance when considering using bleach for a sanitizer. It shows that StarSan is a good sanitizer for use in brewing if you need to sanitize any stainless vessel. Bleach either with or with out acid may be good for glass, plastic, or hoses and other equipment but nothing beets an acid based sanitizer for stainless.

It also shows the importance of pacification of stainless after using an alkaline cleaner. I have read and had people respond to my suggestion that pacification is not needed.