Hangin' Up The Pillowcase - Biab To 3v

[argon]

Got a picture Screwy? Am currently building my new and improved electric HLT and would be very interested in seeing how you've implemented the float switch.

+1... have seen a couple of photos of your system here and there... don't remember seeing the float switch setup though.. very interested.

Will have a search for some of your photos in the meantime.

 

[husky]

Got any pictures of the setup? Im currently designing a 3V system and would be interested in how you have it set up. I gather you are using 1 pump for the recirc?

 

[MeLoveBeer]

Got any pictures of the setup? Im currently designing a 3V system and would be interested in how you have it set up. I gather you are using 1 pump for the recirc?

I can't speak for argon, but I just recirculate using a jug (pump isn't necessary in a simple gravity fed 3V system)

 

[katzke]

I like BIAB and will defend it to the death. That said it is not for everyone and it is nice to read people write good things about BIAB while saying why they made the switch to 3 vessel brewing.

Dont toss the pillow case as you call it. It may come in handy for small test batches in your fancy system.

 

[argon]

Got any pictures of the setup? Im currently designing a 3V system and would be interested in how you have it set up. I gather you are using 1 pump for the recirc?

pics of mine??? umm... it's pretty ghetto at the moment... will be trying to get the Father-in-Law to weld me up a Franko style brew stand, when he thinks he's coming up to help me weld up some gates... h34r:

No pump as yet... what i meant by recirc was Vorlauf ie

the process of clarifying the wort being drawn out of the mash tun. Often this is as simple as drawing 1-2L of wort at a time

just to get rid of any grain bits that have made it through the falsy. Just did this a couple of times with plastic jug until i could see not too many grain bits.

My setup at the moment is 3 pots, 2 no bolt/weld bunnings shelving systems, 1 rambo burner and a couple of silicon tubes. Alot of moving stuff around and lifting heavy pots back up and down. Won't be doing that for too long... but not much of a hassle in reality.

 

[Screwtop]

+1... have seen a couple of photos of your system here and there... don't remember seeing the float switch setup though.. very interested.

Will have a search for some of your photos in the meantime.

Pretty rough, still haven't gotten around to building a control box.
90L MashMate controlled HLT, 50L MLT with 12L MashMate controlled HERMS HE, 80L Kettle with NASA Burner, March Pump. HLT element is an 1800W 1" BSP mounted in a 1" SS Tank socket welded into the side of the HLT connections are housed in a "J" box mounted on a SS plate on the outer end of the tank socket (shitty pic).

Cheers,

Screwy



Wiring for the float switch:

 

[argon]

Pretty rough, still haven't gotten around to building a control box.
90L MashMate controlled HLT, 50L MLT with 12L MashMate controlled HERMS HE, 80L Kettle with NASA Burner, March Pump. HLT element is an 1800W 1" BSP mounted in a 1" SS Tank socket welded into the side of the HLT connections are housed in a "J" box mounted on a SS plate on the outer end of the tank socket (shitty pic).

Thanks Screwy... looks nice and neat and compact to me... will be looking at putting something very similar together myself.

How have you been finding the 1800w element? it's ok for bringing large volumes to boil? Was thinking of a 2200W at the smallest. I guess if it's just for mash out/sparge water it wouldn't be massive volumes.

 

[Screwtop]

Thanks Screwy... looks nice and neat and compact to me... will be looking at putting something very similar together myself.

How have you been finding the 1800w element? it's ok for bringing large volumes to boil? Was thinking of a 2200W at the smallest. I guess if it's just for mash out/sparge water it wouldn't be massive volumes.

Plenty big enough. See lots using bigger elements but have never seen the need. For a double batch around 65L is heated to strike temp in around 2 hrs. HLT is filled with required volume of filtered brewing water the day before and the timer is set for early next morning. When I go to the brewery next morning water is ready. Mash strike water is drained to the MLT and the HLT control is then set to sparge temp. Only takes around 20 min for the remaining sparge water to reach temp. Plenty of time as the mash takes an hour or more.

 

[argon]

Plenty big enough. See lots using bigger elements but have never seen the need. For a double batch around 65L is heated to strike temp in around 2 hrs. HLT is filled with required volume of filtered brewing water the day before and the timer is set for early next morning. When I go to the brewery next morning water is ready. Mash strike water is drained to the MLT and the HLT control is then set to sparge temp. Only takes around 20 min for the remaining sparge water to reach temp. Plenty of time as the mash takes an hour or more.

Cool that's what i thought... gotta love the ability to program your start to the brew day. Too easy.

 

[cdbrown]

UPDATE got the first 3V Ag under the belt last night. Was a lot more pleasant than trying to do double batch BIAB.

Got some good advice regarding doughing in that helped demystify a few things my temps stayed nice and consistent over the 60min mash. Also, for the first one, decided to keep things really simple no mashout and a single batch sparge.

After recircing a couple of times probably the clearest wort Ive ever seen go into the kettle probably the clearest difference between BIAB and 3V post mash. So, happy man this morning 2 cubes of Mild ready to be pitched tonight. Cant wait for the next one.

Congrats on the first brew, I also managed to do some brews on my new 3v rig on the weekend. Was great not to have to continuously tend to it. Wondering what good advice you had regarding doughing in as I'm pretty sure I'm not doing it right.

Did you have to top up the cubes with water at the end or add during the boil? Don't remember seeing what size the kettle volume was. I ran out of time due to starting late and didn't get around to topping up in the kettle (no way I could have done a full boil in the 50L keg) so the two cubes are a few L short.

 

[argon]

Congrats on the first brew, I also managed to do some brews on my new 3v rig on the weekend. Was great not to have to continuously tend to it. Wondering what good advice you had regarding doughing in as I'm pretty sure I'm not doing it right.

Did you have to top up the cubes with water at the end or add during the boil? Don't remember seeing what size the kettle volume was. I ran out of time due to starting late and didn't get around to topping up in the kettle (no way I could have done a full boil in the 50L keg) so the two cubes are a few L short.

Screwy if I may be so bold? heres an extract of a pm from Screwtop I got a few days ago, re discussing my foray into 3V brewing;

Add strike water to tun, cover and wait for 5 min
Add 1/3 grist give a few turns (don't stir) with your mash paddle.
Add 1/3 grist and another few turn.
Add last 1/3 grist and again a few turns. Resist stirring. Don't be too concerned with mash temp as the temp can vary in different spots and depths in the mash.
Stir again (only a few turns) after adding mash out water, no more stirring, unless batch sparging, stir after adding sparge water.
No need to be anal about the volume of mash water (37.80) just alter this in beersmith to the nearest litre (38)

This was in reference to a different recipe that I havent done as yet but the principles remain.

Essentially I added the grain and left it be for the duration of the mash.

I do recall an earlier discussion re stirring and suspending grain flour through the grain bed. Potentially affecting efficiency when sparging IIRC this had more to do with fly-sparging, but happily corrected. As its the first time Ive done a proper sparge, dont take my ramblings and misunderstandings as gospel. Just a basic consciousness of what may be happening. But Ill let the experienced brewers come in with accurate reasoning here.

As for the cube top-ups I brew over gravity and use 17L cubes (old fresh wort kit cubes) then top-up with 4L of cooled boiled water into fermenter at pitching. I have my equipment setup for this in beersmith, so dont even have to think about it anymore. That way my pre boil volume is only 43L or so which is not too bad in a 50L kettle... has to be watched at the start but once Ive got a rolling boil really no threat of a boil-over.

 

[WarmBeer]

Add strike water to tun, cover and wait for 5 min
Add 1/3 grist give a few turns (don't stir) with your mash paddle.
Add 1/3 grist and another few turn.
Add last 1/3 grist and again a few turns. Resist stirring. Don't be too concerned with mash temp as the temp can vary in different spots and depths in the mash.
Stir again (only a few turns) after adding mash out water, no more stirring, unless batch sparging, stir after adding sparge water.
No need to be anal about the volume of mash water (37.80) just alter this in beersmith to the nearest litre (38)

What's the issue with stirring?

Fairly new to AG, but never heard this advice before. Seems to me stirring is pretty important in getting rid of dough balls?

 

[cdbrown]

I've been dumping the grain into the tun and then transferring the hot water after, stirring a little once it's done. I've got a herms set up so if I notice the mash return is very low I'll move some of the grain a bit off the false bottom as the bed has compacted too much.

 

[Screwtop]

Screwy if I may be so bold? heres an extract of a pm from Screwtop I got a few days ago, re discussing my foray into 3V brewing;



This was in reference to a different recipe that I havent done as yet but the principles remain.

Essentially I added the grain and left it be for the duration of the mash.

I do recall an earlier discussion re stirring and suspending grain flour through the grain bed. Potentially affecting efficiency when sparging IIRC this had more to do with fly-sparging,

From practice I found this to be the case with both batch and continuous sparging, although others will have a different opinions.

What's the issue with stirring?

Fairly new to AG, but never heard this advice before. Seems to me stirring is pretty important in getting rid of dough balls?

When starting out I read this too, ever experienced dough balls ? After 130 batches I had my first, doing a single batch, dropped all the grist into the water at once, never done this previously. Stir all you like! All of my brewing processes are the result of practice and trialing new process, before settling on what produces the best result "on my equipment". I get higher efficiency by not stirring flour into suspension, if I do it settles over the grist like mud and the wort doesn't drain down through the grist but down around the sides reducing efficiency. I also drain at only .5L min for best efficiency.


Screwy

 

[argon]

Just to add to what screwy says above. I usually calculate for 70% into kettle. But last night using this mashing and sparging proccess outlined by screwy I got 79% into kettle. Also no dough balls at dough in. So I think this method has worked out ok for me so far. Didn't notice any flour mud over the grain bed either.

:icon_cheers:

 

[Florian]

I get higher efficiency by not stirring flour into suspension, if I do it settles over the grist like mud and the wort doesn't drain down through the grist but down around the sides reducing efficiency. I also drain at only .5L min for best efficiency.


Screwy

Great post! I kind of had a stuck sparge yesterday and constantly had to 'drill holes' into my grain bed to get the wort running. I thought it was the lack of rice hulls, but now reading your post remember that thick layer of mud on top of the grain bed. I usually always stir like crazy the whole time, when doughing in and especially when sparging, as I thought this would give better efficiency. I will try it without stirring next time and see how i go.
I also usually drain very slowly, but not so much as a choice but rather because of that mud layer.

So when batch sparging, would you stir up the bed again or just gently let the water flow on top?

 

[husky]

I can't speak for argon, but I just recirculate using a jug (pump isn't necessary in a simple gravity fed 3V system)

SO are you guys simply pouring the wort back on top of the grain bed or through some form of diffuser/spreader?

 

[Goofinder]

SO are you guys simply pouring the wort back on top of the grain bed or through some form of diffuser/spreader?

I pour onto the back of my mash paddle (coopers kit spoon), to try not to disturb the grain too much. It seems to work ok.

 

[argon]

SO are you guys simply pouring the wort back on top of the grain bed or through some form of diffuser/spreader?

Precisely... but next time i'll be dispersing onto a lid or something... Maybe piece of alfoil or something flat like that... don't know if it makes much of a difference though... again talking out my arse, but thought that was only relevant to fly sparging to minimise channeling. Batch sparging everything gets stirred up anyway... so recircing/vorlaufing straight back in wouldn't make much of a difference.

 

[MeLoveBeer]

Batch sparging everything gets stirred up anyway... so recircing/vorlaufing straight back in wouldn't make much of a difference.

You should give your mash at least a little while to settle before lautering after each sparge water addition (this gives you the nice grain bed filter that provides nice clear wort). If you don't have sufficient grain bed depth, pouring your recirculated wort back in will cause channeling and impact your efficiency (not much though). I usually just grab a lift off something in the kitchen (normally one of the missus tupperware containers or something), float it upside down in the mash tun and pour the recirculated wort on to it (it distributes it beautifully).

Edit: spelling