Gas V Electric Costs

[Gavo]

Got a 1.5Kw system here, considered small. My last power bill was almost $300 less than the same time last year without the system, about the same saving each bill. Even considering mine was an expensive sytem due to the fact of being an upgradable system, quality panels and distance for installers to travel, my system will pay for itself in four to five years.

I will most likely sell up and build again in that time and will then install a larger system again; lower feed in tarrif or not. I will just run the pool pump etc during the day instead of night like I do now.

 

[Florian]

Total cost my friends. Feed in tarrifs, $/per kw hrs in and out... Has anyone who has posted here actually got a PV system? Has anyone that has such a system looked at the total costs? Payback period anyone?

Installing a PV system is expensive. This has to be offset against potential savings or 'earnings' from the potential energy it is 'saving'. Had you not installed it there would be a bunch of money you would still have.

We are looking at an 8 year period before the amount we paid (actually my employers at out office) is negated by the installation costs. Warranty on different PV system varies but can be 10 -15 years if you're lucky. So after 8 years we might be ahead for 2 - 7 years. Is the average Joe Blow going to make such an investment for a payback not payable until 8 years in the future? What if he invested the same amount in some sort of non-PV investment? Would that be a better net return in 8 years time? I honestly do not know.

I am not going to install a PV on my house because I don't know if I will still be here in 8 yrs time. What if I want to sell in 10 yrs time for a bit of an upgrade? Is the big outlay now worth it for a potential 2yr saving in 8yrs time? Fark it, i'll keep the extra coin now and maybe spend it on something with immediate benefit, such as shiny stuff for brewing.

8 years is a very long time, Malted, I can only assume that's because your employer uses most of the electricity produced during sunshine hours rather than selling it for a premium.

I agree that as an average Joe I wouldn't bother with such a long payback period, taking possible future savings and hardware failure into account.

However, if you got into solar in time and are able to shift most of your usage to the dark hours (like most working people do anyway) this time will be significantly reduced.

We are running near 8KW of panels on a 5KW inverter, meaning the inverter runs at capacity for most of the day. Instead of going with expensive German hardware I decided to go with tried and tested good quality but cheap Chinese stuff with a installer I know I can trust. With conservative calculations the system will be paid off in under 4 years, and after that it basically means free electricity until rates absolutely sky rocket and exceed the feed in tariff, and maybe by then good battery systems are more affordable so the electricity produced during the day can be saved for night time consumption. If not at least I know the system has paid itself off and a big chunk of energy used will be shifted to daytime.

You raise a good point though with selling the property, under new Qld legislation the FIT expires as soon as the account holder changes, so while the system might add value when selling, the new owner (or tenant) will not be able to benefit from a high FIT. I know we'll be here until the kids leave home which is still a very long time away.

 

[Liam_snorkel]

I'm going to further derail the thread. Not sorry.

I have a little predicament - I'm currently renting a place off SWMBO's parents and we plan to buy it before the end of the year. I wonder if I can get an application in and approved for the higher FIT now, and then install the system next year when we own the place.

 

[Florian]

Liam,

Yes you can if:

1. You already have the electricity account in your name and will keep it in your name once you buy.
2. You finish the install before 30 June 2013.

If I was you I'd put the application in and then see what your situation is (financially or else) when you bought the place.

 

[Liam_snorkel]

Good to know, cheers.

 

[Maheel]

I can't remember the details but there is a company that has or is going to launch a product for powering your house. It uses a fuel cell running on natural gas and uses the heat created/cooling needed to heat your hot water. The system is something like 80% efficient as the inherrent losses are turned into hot water heating. A Coal fired power plant gets 30% efficiency. Also being in the home you don't have the losses involved with powerlines and transformers crossing the country. They can be used a a base power load. They still create carbon dioxide but the amount is very much decreased as well as the amount of fuel being fed in is much less.

http://www.harveynormansolar.com.au/BlueGEN.html

had a look and thought "pretty cool" till i saw the 40K price tag.....

when they can bring down the price it woudl be an interesting option

 

[Edak]

You're all wrong, the cheapest way to brew is underpants.

1. Collect underpants
2.
3. Profit

Brewing-gnomes

There is a lot of discussion as to the environmental impact of actually producing the solar panels to begin with. There is obviously a carbon footprint involved with the production of the panels, mining the raw material, transportation of materials, manufacturing of components, transportation of components, transportation to assembly, assembly, transportation to distributor, transportation to retailer, transportation to end user.

In two days the price is obviously going to go up, so if you want your solar system then get it today!

If someone is claiming savings of $2000 per year then they must have a minimum use of 8700kWh+ of solar electricity per year, based on a price of 23c/kWh. 8760kWh/year is a nominal usage of 1kW all day/night. That's 24kWh useful electricity generation per day. A typical 1kW system will output nominally 4.5kWh/day in Victoria so this means you would need to have a 5.3kW system which is quite large.

 

[user 384]

If someone is claiming savings of $2000 per year then they must have a minimum use of 8700kWh+ of solar electricity per year, based on a price of 23c/kWh. 8760kWh/year is a nominal usage of 1kW all day/night. That's 24kWh useful electricity generation per day. A typical 1kW system will output nominally 4.5kWh/day in Victoria so this means you would need to have a 5.3kW system which is quite large.

I basically generate 5000kWh per year, which is an average of 13.6kWh per day. This is from a 4kW system in South Australia.

This is more than we use. We average 10-11kWh usage per day.

With a FIT of 52c/kWh and buy back price of 24c/kWh, we are ahead by about $2,200 per year. This is a combination of a high FIT, little usage during the day optimising the return from feed-in and overall low consumption of energy.

When you add the value of the electricity we used and the cash amount we receive back each quarter, it is about $2,200 of value per year.

The solar panels are not the panacea, it's the combination of factors, not least of which is a high FIT.

 

[Florian]

If someone is claiming savings of $2000 per year then they must have a minimum use of 8700kWh+ of solar electricity per year, based on a price of 23c/kWh. 8760kWh/year is a nominal usage of 1kW all day/night. That's 24kWh useful electricity generation per day. A typical 1kW system will output nominally 4.5kWh/day in Victoria so this means you would need to have a 5.3kW system which is quite large.

Edak, you have to look at this from a different angle.

If you were to generate 24kWh during sunshine hours you'd sell that in QLD for $12 to energy retailer Origin. From these $12 you can buy yourself 52kWh back for consumption during non sunshine hours for your air con, oven etc which you use when you come home from work. If you don't use the full 52kWh you end up with a credit.

Obviously you wouldn't sell your full 24kWh as you still have appliances like fridges etc running even if you're not at home, but I think you get the idea. With a moderately large system and by keeping an eye on your consumption you can not only set your electricity bill to zero, but in fact also get money back into your account.

EDIT: beaten by MAH

 

[Edak]

Edak, you have to look at this from a different angle.

If you were to generate 24kWh during sunshine hours you'd sell that in QLD for $12 to energy retailer Origin. From these $12 you can buy yourself 52kWh back for consumption during non sunshine hours for your air con, oven etc which you use when you come home from work. If you don't use the full 52kWh you end up with a credit.

Obviously you wouldn't sell your full 24kWh as you still have appliances like fridges etc running even if you're not at home, but I think you get the idea. With a moderately large system and by keeping an eye on your consumption you can not only set your electricity bill to zero, but in fact also get money back into your account.

EDIT: beaten by MAH

I get your point but for those people not already in the game it is misleading because the FIT is barely any higher than the buy price. With the latest figures saying that the FIT is currently at 25c a newcomer cannot get the same benefit. sure my figure will vary from my own calculated values, butnot by much.

 

[Edak]

To add to the previous post, origins current FIT /TFIT rate is 31c.

 

[Florian]

Different from state to state as I said, my example was for Qld. People here still have a Chance to get into the game, so no misleading Statements on my Part.

 

[Snow]

B) >> inserts smug look<< With Qld's FIT about to drop 44c, I am mightily pleased I locked in Origin at 50c when i put in my PV system. Got $280 credit from them last quarter.... and that's running 3 brewing fridges and paying 100% green power when not generating.

Not trying to rub it in - just pleased is all h34r:

Cheers - Snow

To add to the previous post, origins current FIT /TFIT rate is 31c.

 

[user 384]

Crap thing about the FIT is that it will keep dropping, but the tariff you're charged will keep going up.

So Florian is right, that it will become increasingly uneconomical to install solar.

In South Australia, if you hadn't signed up by September 2011, it basically becomes an offset system, because it will be hard to cover your costs 100%.

This is because even though you make excess energy during the day, the excess you sell is paid at a rate lower than you will need to buy back when the sun goes down.

After September 2013 it becomes even worse, you will receive a minimum retailer payment (read all we will pay) of 11.2c/kWh. The minimum payment from July 2014 onwards is yet to be determined.

Assuming you use 18kWh per day and about 1/3 of this is consumed during sunlight hours. Also assuming that you are being paid about 1/3 of the buy back tariff for your excess (not a hard assumption considering the 11.2c/kWh minimum payment). To be cost neutral, you will need to generate about 42kWh (6kWh used during the day + 36kWh exported to be equivalent in value to the 12kWh you will use after dark).

It's a crazy thought that you could generate as much energy or more than you use, but still end up paying for electricity.

The bastards don't like you getting energy for free.

Best hope is for battery technology to progress and costs to drop.

 

[bum]

it will be hard to cover your costs 100%.

I'm trying really hard to work out how many things I have ever bought that do this.

 

[Florian]

I'm trying really hard to work out how many things I have ever bought that do this.

A solar system is an investment, at least that's the way I looked at it. You have a large-ish outlay now and hope to get some profit/savings out of it in the future.
Just like an investment property that you buy to rent out, paying off the mortgage through the rent you're getting and eventually ending up with a property which is paid off and can be sold or whatever.

Most 'normal' things you buy are just goods to be consumed, you don't expect your car to earn you money unless you're a taxi driver.

 

[WarmBeer]

A solar system is an investment, at least that's the way I looked at it. You have a large-ish outlay now and hope to get some profit/savings out of it in the future.
Just like an investment property that you buy to rent out, paying off the mortgage through the rent you're getting and eventually ending up with a property which is paid off and can be sold or whatever.

OT: How I read your first sentence.

 

[user 384]

I'm trying really hard to work out how many things I have ever bought that do this.

Solar was pitched in two ways;

1. the idea that you would never have to pay an electricity bill again with a whole of house system, or
2. you can offset the cost of your electricity with a small system.

The whole of house systems that cost $10,000 plus will be very hard to sell if in the future it only offsets your electricity bill.

The $2,500 offset system becomes relatively more attractive, as the cost benefit of producing excess energy drops, but still harder to sell.

It will also change behaviour. We run electricity intensive appliances, like the dishwasher, after dark. But with a FIT lower than the buy back tariff, it makes more sense to run it during the day.

You could always buy a larger system, crank the heating or cooling during the day, then switch it off at night :lol:

 

[Florian]

OT: How I read your first sentence.

Didn't i say I bought them all? Didn't bother with the Dwarf Planets though, not enough return on investment with those little buggers :lol:

Well, photovoltaic system it is then I guess.

Edit: added quote

 

[Snow]

But with a FIT lower than the buy back tariff, it makes more sense to run it during the day.

But.... hang on. How can FITs be maintained at a lower rate than buy back in a capitalist economy? Surely market competition will see an equilibrium of price if there is no Govt intervention?