Force carbonation: lots of head pressure, still flat beer

[Brewno Marz]

Are you sure it's 40psi & not 40 kPa? 40 kPa = flat beer

 

[The Flyingscrapyard]

I recently went over to kegs, and had similar issues. Set the reg as per the recommended pressures (260kPa, but I prefer PSI as I can picture a pound sitting on a square inch), and left for most of the week. Released the pressure down to enough to pour (50kPa). Poured heaps of foam, and flat beer.
What did I do wrong?
So I wound the pressure up again, and lay the keg on its side with the gas in post below liquid level and rocked it as suggested on some forums. Yes, more gas went in and I left it for another day.
Released the pressure down to serving pressure, and it was even worse.
Then I had another look for answers on forums (including on AHB). This is where I found some sage advice that if you had heaps of head, and flat beer, then it was over-gassed, as the gas was coming out of solution when the pressure dropped during pouring. A tell tale suggested was that if the beer line was full of bubbles after pouring, it would be over-gassed.
It seemed counter-intuitive, but I wasn't getting better results by putting in more gas. So I dropped the pressure down, and vented the pressure each time I went past it during the next day, and tried pouring a beer that afternoon.
Success! Now I had a reasonable amount of head, and some bubbles in the beer. Not a lot, just a few streams in the glass, but enough to put a little sizzle on the tongue. This is what I'm currently trying to improve by increasing the pour pressure and leaving it at this same pressure all the time, therefore avoiding a differential of pressure between stored in the beer and that used to pour. This isn't working as well as I would like.
I would like to get a little more fizz into the beer, but this isn't coming easily. Perhaps others can suggest if my plan is flawed or not?

 

[Liam_snorkel]

at 260kPa it would be fully carbed within 2 days depending on a few things. a week - wayyyy over carbed.

Poured heaps of foam, and flat beer.

The beer in the keg is so fizzy that the bulk of the carbonation gets agitated out of solution while you're pouring it

 

[Black Devil Dog]

I'd say it's definitely over carbonated and speaking from experience, I've found that almost totally de-carbonating it is your best option.

I suspect that recently, I carbonated a keg twice :huh: and had massive foam issues like I'd never experienced before.

The way I de-carbonated was to attach a length of silicon tube to a gas quick connect and put the loose end of the tube into a 3 litre milk bottle with sanitiser, essentially making a blow off tube for my keg.

Be prepared for a **** load of foam to escape as well.

I left it connected overnight.

The next morning I connected the co2 at serving pressure and later that day it was fine.

Any time I've over-carbonated in the past, I've tried to rectify it by releasing the PRV numerous times, or poured foam until the beer glass is full and both of those ways have been a pain in the arse.

 

[Grott]

The set and forget method of setting the pressure at dispensing pressure and leaving it ensures you won't over carb but you need to leave that set up for 7 days plus to achieve the required carbonation.
Fine if you have a few kegs or you don't drink much but I like to have all my cold kegs carbed and ready to go so I force carbonate to a set method each time that requires 24 hours at dispensing pressure to finish carbonation process ( therefore I don't have over carb problems as the force carb method has just left the kegs slightly undercarbed).

The are numerous threads on force carbonation if you want to go down that path.

 

[Brewnicorn]

I'd say it's definitely over carbonated and speaking from experience, I've found that almost totally de-carbonating it is your best option.

I suspect that recently, I carbonated a keg twice :huh: and had massive foam issues like I'd never experienced before.

The way I de-carbonated was to attach a length of silicon tube to a gas quick connect and put the loose end of the tube into a 3 litre milk bottle with sanitiser, essentially making a blow off tube for my keg.

Be prepared for a **** load of foam to escape as well.

I left it connected overnight.

The next morning I connected the co2 at serving pressure and later that day it was fine.

Any time I've over-carbonated in the past, I've tried to rectify it by releasing the PRV numerous times, or poured foam until the beer glass is full and both of those ways have been a pain in the arse.

This answered a long held question I wanted to ask about whether you'd 'ruin' a keg of beer if you stuffed the carbonation levels.
Thank you!
-scared noob

 

[Black Devil Dog]

The set and forget method of setting the pressure at dispensing pressure and leaving it ensures you won't over carb but you need to leave that set up for 7 days plus to achieve the required carbonation.
Fine if you have a few kegs or you don't drink much but I like to have all my cold kegs carbed and ready to go so I force carbonate to a set method each time that requires 24 hours at dispensing pressure to finish carbonation process ( therefore I don't have over carb problems as the force carb method has just left the kegs slightly undercarbed).

The are numerous threads on force carbonation if you want to go down that path.

 

[Rocker1986]

I had some over carbonation issues when I started too, trying to use the quick carb method that does it in a matter of minutes (aside from the settling time). It didn't end up as bad as some, but I poured nothing but foam on the first glass, so I figured that was the problem. I got around it by bleeding the pressure in the keg, then giving it a half second hit of gas (serving pressure), which put just enough pressure in the keg to push the beer out of the tap, then pouring a glass. No foam everywhere, and plenty of carbonation in the beer, too much but at least it wasn't flat. This worked well until the carb level dropped a bit under normal and it then went back on normal serving pressure. It doesn't sound like that's gonna work in this instance so you might just have to completely de-carbonate the beer and start again.

I've since gotten rid of that "instant" method and just put them on 45PSI in the kegerator for about 22 hours followed by a 6-7 hour settling period, then pressure bleed, connect beer lines and re-connect gas at serving pressure. They're a tad undercarbed at this point but good enough to enjoy a glass, and another day on serving pressure sees them right.

Last year I had a 7% stout on tap which finished at about 1.015-16 FG. It just sat on serving pressure the whole time but it definitely didn't carb up as much on the same pressure as lighter styles do, which suited me fine actually because the carb level in it was perfect and I didn't even have to **** around with anything to get it there :lol:

 

[Liam_snorkel]

I'd say it's definitely over carbonated and speaking from experience, I've found that almost totally de-carbonating it is your best option.

I suspect that recently, I carbonated a keg twice :huh: and had massive foam issues like I'd never experienced before.

The way I de-carbonated was to attach a length of silicon tube to a gas quick connect and put the loose end of the tube into a 3 litre milk bottle with sanitiser, essentially making a blow off tube for my keg.

Be prepared for a **** load of foam to escape as well.

I left it connected overnight.

The next morning I connected the co2 at serving pressure and later that day it was fine.

Any time I've over-carbonated in the past, I've tried to rectify it by releasing the PRV numerous times, or poured foam until the beer glass is full and both of those ways have been a pain in the arse.

here's an easier way. it works and is mess-free:

https://youtu.be/xk79UYGmAk8?t=6m58s

 

[Brewnicorn]

here's an easier way. it works and is mess-free:

https://youtu.be/xk79UYGmAk8?t=6m58s

Ripper

 

[peteru]

Just a warning about that video, if you don't like waffle - don't watch it!

For me, the simplest and most fool-proof quick-carb method is the carbonation keg lid from Keg King. It works a beauty. I fill the keg from fermenter with 5C beer, put the carbonation lid on and hook up the carbonation stone post to gas at 10psi. Give the fermenter a quick clean, come back to the keg 5 minutes later and turn up the gas to 20-25psi. Leave for another 10 minutes, then disconnect the gas from carbonation lid, carry keg to the kegerator and hook up the normal beer and gas disconnects. It's pretty much ready to drink straight away.

Less work and probably faster than the shake/roll over-pressure methods. Certainly less risk of overcarbonation.

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

This answers some of my questions.

I tend to lean to set and forget, because i'm sick of trying to get drinkable beer straight off the bat. The only reason I have tried for so long was having another brewer's 24hour carbed beer which was great. I just can't seem to pull it off.

So now, I just dial up to serving pressure and leave for a week. 2 weeks is perfect, but if it's a beer that deals with lower carbonation (like my mild) then the keg starts to disappear quickly within 4 days.

I just drink stuff from bottles or buy commercial beer if the other keg is either SWMBO beer or nearly empty. I have yet (around my 5 kids) managed to brew enough to fill three drinkable kegs at the same time.

 

[Grott]

I just drink stuff from bottles or buy commercial beer if the other keg is either SWMBO beer or nearly empty. I have yet (around my 5 kids) managed to brew enough to fill three drinkable kegs at the same time.

Have you considered just doing a couple of kit and kilo brews for the other 2 kegs? Using decent malt, yeast and you can get a top drop.
With my force carbing of all my kegs it is not designed for immediate drinking as they usually sit carbonated in the fridge for 3 to 4 weeks before used, it jousts suits me this way and have the "process" down pat.

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

Have you considered just doing a couple of kit and kilo brews for the other 2 kegs? Using decent malt, yeast and you can get a top drop.
With my force carbing of all my kegs it is not designed for immediate drinking as they usually sit carbonated in the fridge for 3 to 4 weeks before used, it jousts suits me this way and have the "process" down pat.

I've yet to find a K&K I really like.

With Kit beers, styles such as stout/porter and the like tend to be what I prefer (though it's been years) because I can hid the kit twang and make a decent black beer. But I've already got bottles of stout sitting away, and wanted something bland and fizzy to fill a keg and they don't tend to suit K&K beers for me.

Having said that, I managed to squeeze 2 x 19L lots of beer from the urn, so I have an XPA fermenting and an EPA to go. My other issue - fermenting space - only one fermenting fridge capable of taking only one fermenter at a time.

Hopefully the Saison done with WY3724 and Danstar Belle Saison will be fizzy soon. Already tasting phenomenal.

 

[Rocker1986]

A bit O/T; I have the same issue with fermenting space, but I find if I put three full kegs* in at the same time, I can get the next three fermented and kegged before the last of the previous three blows dry, and the cycle repeats.

*I also have a 10L 'Heinz 57' keg that gets filled with 8 or 9L of blended surplus from two batches which is tapped when one of the 19L ones runs out, so it's sort of 3 and a half kegs.

 

[contrarian]

The other things I find impact carbonation levels are the amount of headspace and the temperature so always best to chill before carbonating and if you have a very full keg and are doing a quick carb method such as the Ross method, you will need a bit longer.

If you have the kegs available about 1/4cup of sugar, a purge at high pressure to ensure the lid seals and a week at ambient is also a very simple way to get consistent carbonation levels although it leaves a bit more yeast at the bottom of the keg.

 

[Liam_snorkel]

slightly off topic but while you mention it - keg king are selling their flexible dip tube float (made for fermentersaurus) separately, which could come in handy for naturally carbed kegs http://kegking.com.au/fermentasaurus-float-and-dip-tube.html
I've recently bought a few spare kegs so will look at doing this.

 

[contrarian]

Even without them it isn't a big deal. Once the kegs are chilled there might be a glass that gets chucked but that's about it.

 

[Liam_snorkel]

good to know.

 

[Danscraftbeer]

Re - Set and forget at 12psi for all your beer styles. 1 to 2 weeks. Then give it two weeks! That's it. Accept it.
1 week for pale light body beers to 2 weeks or more for heavier higher body beers.
Drink something else if you have to in the meantime but consider that in the turnover time of your beer. Plus all the other time etc.

I pressure ferment so my beer finishes around 90% carbonated. Even then its best if connected to 12psi and chilled for more than a week in the kegorator/fridge set up on tap etc. After a month an tap is were its at for what your beer really should be IMO.
Don't over think it. Its a time conditioning thing that cant be rushed for the real polish.
$0.02

Edit: To ad.
I have to admit that you can make really good drinking beer on tap at 14 days from grain to brain and IPA is the best candidate for that shortest time ratio but then again give it time on tap conditioning it gets better.