Flocculation In Layman's Terms.

[huscre]

Hi,

I've been researching on wikipedia and homebrewing forums forums and can't work out if high flocculation means lots of fluffy sediment, or a thinner layer of compacted sediment.

Eg. I just wasted a lot of my belgian trippel while racking to secondary because I had around 4" of loosely compacted sediment that i wanted to leave behind. Does this mean my yeast had high flocculation or low flocculation?

 

[zebba]

High floc = hard, compact sediment.

I know some here hate it, but I love my S-04

 

[Adamt]

-Flocculation is when very small suspended particles (i.e. yeast cells) stick to each other to form larger chunks of "floc".
-Particles with a higher density will settle at a greater rate than those of a lower density - whether density changes due to flocculation I'm not sure, but anyway.
-Very small/light particles (like individual yeast cells) do not sedimentate at an appreciable rate due to random/Brownian motion in the flow. Heavier particles are less affected by Brownian motion.

Just looking at the first and last point, a higher degree of flocculation will result in quicker formation of heavier particles, which will result in faster sedimentation.

That is the long way of saying "Higher flocculation ~ more compact sediment"

 

[matti]

I have never brewed a Belgian but I'd would say that you would require a yeast that eats a load of sugar.
This could be either a high flocculating yeast or a fast flocculating yeast.
Most importantly did you hit you final gravity targets?

I am sure there are someone here who knows a lot more about this then I.

 

[WarmBeer]

That is the long way of saying "Higher flocculation ~ more compact sediment"

That's the way Adamt, never use a long word when a diminutive one will do

 

[Adamt]

Low flocculation is probably good for a high gravity beer, compact means there's less yeast in action.

I guess the solution for your problem huscre is to rack the lot (including any cloudy "settling zone" beer) to another container for a few days and let that settle.

 

[huscre]

So... a higher floculation yeast will flocculate more to produce a lower amount of floc on the bottom of my fermenter.. and a higher amount of beer in my cube?

So generally, other factors aside, High floc is a good attribute in a yeast?

 

[zebba]

So... a higher floculation yeast will flocculate more to produce a lower amount of floc on the bottom of my fermenter.. and a higher amount of beer in my cube?

So generally, other factors aside, High floc is a good attribute in a yeast?

In my experience, yes.

It's (one reason) why I love S-04. My last batch I was able to rack all the beer into secondary - all that was left in primary was a big hard block of yeast - a thing of beauty!

(forum lost my first response...)

 

[Adamt]

So... a higher floculation yeast will flocculate more to produce a lower amount of floc on the bottom of my fermenter.. and a higher amount of beer in my cube?

Well, a high flocculating yeast will form more, compact sediment, but highly compacted sediment does not actually hold any beer. The issue is with the "settling zone" between the (basically) clear beer above and the compact sediment below, the height of this zone will decrease with time and with higher flocculation.

So generally, other factors aside, High floc is a good attribute in a yeast?

Read above post (you might have missed it while writing your post), i.e. good for fast fermenting beers.

 

[Effect]

So... a higher floculation yeast will flocculate more to produce a lower amount of floc on the bottom of my fermenter.. and a higher amount of beer in my cube?

So generally, other factors aside, High floc is a good attribute in a yeast?

the way I see it is, if it is high floc, the yeast will jump down to the bottom with ease after they reckon they have eaten enough (like getting maccas at the drive through)

if it is low floc, even when they reckon they have eaten enough, they still hang about (sort of like those couples in a restaurant that sit around for an hour or 2 after they have finished eating)

is that layman's terms enough for you?

whether or not it is a good quality depends.

if it is high flocculating, IIRC it eats fast, can be sloppy and cranks out the heat, and can flocculate out without eating enough. Where as you will probably find that low flocculating yeasts will eat the sugars quite well...

Cheers
Phil

PS: substitute eat with attenuate.

 

[huscre]

Read above post (you might have missed it while writing your post), i.e. good for fast fermenting beers.

Yep. thanks you were one step ahead of me.


Also, sorry when I said "other factors aside" I meant "In terms of no other factors but getting as much beer as possible out of the fermenter".

Thanks for all the info, I can see why this is such an art. Hard and fast rules don't seem to help much with choosing a yeast strain.

 

[matti]

So... a higher floculation yeast will flocculate more to produce a lower amount of floc on the bottom of my fermenter.. and a higher amount of beer in my cube?

So generally, other factors aside, High floc is a good attribute in a yeast?

Not always.
The less yeast in suspension the clearer the beer but, as mention it may've not finished the JOB.

An example:
If the yeast flocculate too quickly it wouldn't had time to finish the fermentation.

Every yeast has its own properties and each fermentation is unique if one of many variable have been altered.

Simply go back to gravity readings.

If you Final gravity is in the expected Zone I.e 1.006-1.012 for lighter beer and 1.016+ for big beers.
Belgian is a big beer and I would expect that you need to allow the beer to finish the fermentation properly and if the yeast is still in suspension you have no worries.

 

[avaneyk]

Slightly :icon_offtopic: ,

any suggestions to ensure good attenuation? For my recent batches I haven' been able to get below 1.015 for normal OG beers (ie 1.040-1.060). I've done 3 AG batches and have done single infusion mashes at 68C with a mashout for each one.

I'm using dry yeasts, but S04, US05 and T58 used for batches 1,2 and 3 respectively, my FG was a few points higher than expected. S04 is meant to be high floc, US05 is medium and T58 is high.

I'm thinking aeration is more the issue than yeast floc rate. I syphon cooled wort from my kettle to my fermenter and aeration is done by splashing the wort from the end of the syphon hose into the fermenter.

Should I be trying to aerate more aggressively?

Andrew

 

[Effect]

Slightly :icon_offtopic: ,

any suggestions to ensure good attenuation? For my recent batches I haven' been able to get below 1.015 for normal OG beers (ie 1.040-1.060). I've done 3 AG batches and have done single infusion mashes at 68C with a mashout for each one.

I'm using dry yeasts, but S04, US05 and T58 used for batches 1,2 and 3 respectively, my FG was a few points higher than expected. S04 is meant to be high floc, US05 is medium and T58 is high.

I'm thinking aeration is more the issue than yeast floc rate. I syphon cooled wort from my kettle to my fermenter and aeration is done by splashing the wort from the end of the syphon hose into the fermenter.

Should I be trying to aerate more aggressively?

Andrew

dried yeasts don't need the aeration that liquid yeasts do...

It could be a temperatue issue?


edit: just noticed the high mash temp...that will give you a good amount of unfermentable sugars, sugars that the yeast put in the too hard basket. That is another factor to your high FG.

 

[warra48]

AndrewSA, try mashing longer which, in theory, should give you better fermentability of your wort, which means a lower FG.
Mashing lower should also give you the same outcome.
I never mash less than 60 minutes and have mashed up to 120 minutes. My average is about 90 minutes, and I have no problem in getting down to my desired FG.

 

[buttersd70]

flocculation is a very minor consideration when it comes to attenuation. High floc yeasts can attenuate just as well as low floc yeasts...they just need better handling, to ensure that they remain in suspension.

Attenuation issues are much more likely to be caused by grist composition and (inaccurate) mash temperature. first thing I'd be doing is checking the callibration of my thermometer.

edit: I've seen similar issues on here where thermometer was suggested, and denied as a problem....about 5 pages in they caved in and decided to check it.....7C off, they thought they were mashing at 65, turns out they were mashing at 72.

 

[avaneyk]

AndrewSA, try mashing longer which, in theory, should give you better fermentability of your wort, which means a lower FG.
Mashing lower should also give you the same outcome.
I never mash less than 60 minutes and have mashed up to 120 minutes. My average is about 90 minutes, and I have no problem in getting down to my desired FG.

Ok - one more question before I stop hijacking this post (Sorry to the OP)

Would a longer mash improve my efficiency as well? My last batch only got around 60% :huh:

I've been mashing for 60mins at 68C with a 10min mashout at 75C

Andrew.

 

[avaneyk]

flocculation is a very minor consideration when it comes to attenuation. High floc yeasts can attenuate just as well as low floc yeasts...they just need better handling, to ensure that they remain in suspension.

Attenuation issues are much more likely to be caused by grist composition and (inaccurate) mash temperature. first thing I'd be doing is checking the callibration of my thermometer.

edit: I've seen similar issues on here where thermometer was suggested, and denied as a problem....about 5 pages in they caved in and decided to check it.....7C off, they thought they were mashing at 65, turns out they were mashing at 72.

Hmmm....probably should have known better than to assume my thermometer was correct...although I did check that my digital thermometer read the same as an alcohol one I've got and it was pretty close. I'll check again - thanks for the tip.

Andrew