Flanders Red

[kook]

Well, I've got a pack of Roselare blend that I really want to use. Hoping to brew it the weekend 3rd/4th March.

At the moment, the plan is to use a recipe roughly based on the one Jamil supplied in his Flanders Red podcast.

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 21.00 L
Boil Size: 30.99 L
Estimated OG: 1.055 SG
Estimated Color: 13.9 SRM
Estimated IBU: 10.1 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.0 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item
1.60 kg Pilsner (Weyermann) (1.7 SRM) 32.5 %
1.60 kg Vienna Malt (Weyermann) (3.0 SRM) 32.5 %
1.00 kg Munich I (Weyermann) (7.1 SRM) 20.3 %
0.18 kg Caraamber (Weyermann) (36.0 SRM) 3.7 %
0.18 kg Caraaroma (Weyermann) (178.0 SRM) 3.7 %
0.18 kg Caramunich II (Weyermann) (63.0 SRM) 3.7 %
0.18 kg Wheat Malt, Malt Craft (Joe White) (1.8 SRM) 3.7 %
20.0 g Tettnang 05 [4.10%] (60 min) 10.1 IBU
0.50 Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 10.0 min)
1 Pkgs Roselare Belgian Blend (Wyeast Labs #3763)

Plan is to do a single infusion mash at 69 degrees for 90 minutes, then batch sparge. Boil for 90, starting hop additions at 60.

I'm still undecided about the fermentation schedule though. I emailed WYeast and they recommend using the Roselare in the primary, which is something I'm trying to avoid. I want this brew to make contact with as little of my equipment as possible.

At the moment I can see a few options:

• Pitch US-05 in Primary (Plastic) at 18deg (Fridge) until reached 70-75% attenuation. Rack to glass, pitch Roselare and store till ready (6-18 months).
• Pitch Roselare in Primary (Bucket) at 18deg (Fridge) until reached 70-75% attenuation. Rack to glass, store till ready (6-18 months). Only use that bucket infuture for grain.
• Pitch Roselare in Glass, store till ready (6-18 months).

Has anyone had any experience with this and able to give any tips?

I'm planning to store this in a storeroom at my place which is reasonably cool. Didn't seem to exceed mid-high 20's during the 35+ degree heat the last few weeks, so I figure once it cools down it should stay low-mid 20's. I realise this is not optimal, but I don't want to tie up a fridge forever If it's still going in Oct/Nov, I'll move it to a fridge again.

Hopefully it'll finish around that time anyway, the start of cherry season! If so, I intend to rack off about 5 litres for bottling then pitch 300g/L of cherries for another 3-6 months into it.

 

[warrenlw63]

Well, I've got a pack of Roselare blend that I really want to use. Hoping to brew it the weekend 3rd/4th March.

At the moment, the plan is to use a recipe roughly based on the one Jamil supplied in his Flanders Red podcast.

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 21.00 L
Boil Size: 30.99 L
Estimated OG: 1.055 SG
Estimated Color: 13.9 SRM
Estimated IBU: 10.1 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.0 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item
1.60 kg Pilsner (Weyermann) (1.7 SRM) 32.5 %
1.60 kg Vienna Malt (Weyermann) (3.0 SRM) 32.5 %
1.00 kg Munich I (Weyermann) (7.1 SRM) 20.3 %
0.18 kg Caraamber (Weyermann) (36.0 SRM) 3.7 %
0.18 kg Caraaroma (Weyermann) (178.0 SRM) 3.7 %
0.18 kg Caramunich II (Weyermann) (63.0 SRM) 3.7 %
0.18 kg Wheat Malt, Malt Craft (Joe White) (1.8 SRM) 3.7 %
20.0 g Tettnang 05 [4.10%] (60 min) 10.1 IBU
0.50 Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 10.0 min)
1 Pkgs Roselare Belgian Blend (Wyeast Labs #3763)

Plan is to do a single infusion mash at 69 degrees for 90 minutes, then batch sparge. Boil for 90, starting hop additions at 60.

I'm still undecided about the fermentation schedule though. I emailed WYeast and they recommend using the Roselare in the primary, which is something I'm trying to avoid. I want this brew to make contact with as little of my equipment as possible.

At the moment I can see a few options:

• Pitch US-05 in Primary (Plastic) at 18deg (Fridge) until reached 70-75% attenuation. Rack to glass, pitch Roselare and store till ready (6-18 months).
• Pitch Roselare in Primary (Bucket) at 18deg (Fridge) until reached 70-75% attenuation. Rack to glass, store till ready (6-18 months). Only use that bucket infuture for grain.
• Pitch Roselare in Glass, store till ready (6-18 months).

Has anyone had any experience with this and able to give any tips?

I'm planning to store this in a storeroom at my place which is reasonably cool. Didn't seem to exceed mid-high 20's during the 35+ degree heat the last few weeks, so I figure once it cools down it should stay low-mid 20's. I realise this is not optimal, but I don't want to tie up a fridge forever If it's still going in Oct/Nov, I'll move it to a fridge again.

Hopefully it'll finish around that time anyway, the start of cherry season! If so, I intend to rack off about 5 litres for bottling then pitch 300g/L of cherries for another 3-6 months into it.

Kook I've got a pack of Rosalare as well and plan a very similar thing. Probably Jamil's recipe or the one from Wildbrews.

I was contemplating the 68-69 degree mash and maybe fermenting with an unattenuative yeast like Wy. 1338 or 1968 (both have pretty neutral flavours). They tend to drop bright before they finish. I was then going to rack the brew a bit on the sticky/worty side to a plastic cube and add the Rosalare and leave it to it's devices for 12 months or more.

Same concerns. Not too keen on having the Rosalare in contact with my glass carboys or anything else.

Good luck with the brew. Should be a beauty.

Warren -

 

[kook]

I don't mind having it in glass. It seems like a better option over a long time as it is easy to tell when the pellicle is dropping off. Also means you can take photos of it

I figure I can just soak the glass after in caustic or similar. Discard the stopper (or keep for future funk beers). Only other things will be racking hose & bottling bucket (cheap to replace) and possibly an autosiphon (also not too expensive).

WY1968 is an interesting idea, I've got a sample I could use for it too. It would make sense to use something more flocculant than US-05 for primary. Maybe even 3522?

 

[Asher]

I did some lactic infected brews in plastic fermenters that went on to live long and happy lives fermenting un-infected beers afterwards... Just gave then a good bleach soaking.

Anyway Kook,
- Make sure you brew on the 3rd... 4th is the Juncthouse Brewday
- The two fermenters have been set asside for sour brewing now I have my new fermenter up and running.
- You can borrow them if you like. But I'd definitely like to see you red primary fermented on the Roselare
- Want to double the batch size and give me 20l? did I mention I have two 30l fermenters already

Asher for now

 

[kook]

Been doing more reading and it seems that a lot of the people who've played with this in the US (including Jamil) just used plastic. Maybe I should save myself the cash of buying a glass carboy and just use an existing plastic (i've got a couple spare).

Asher, I'm fine with doing a double batch of it if you like.

My only concern then though is the yeast. I'd planned on just using the smack pack as-is. I should probably make a starter for it in that case if we're going to split it in 2x20L. I wonder how the other organisms build in a starter? :unsure: I guess there would be enough regardless for them to build up again after the majority of the fermentation is complete?

 

[Asher]

Yep - thought about that too.
Better to be safe and pitch the whole thing onto 22l
I'll give my own one a crack soon.

My Kriek Plambic is sitting on cherries in a polycarbonate water container at the moment... Need to buy a big 200ml syringe so I can draw off a sample ....

 

[ausdb]

My only concern then though is the yeast. I'd planned on just using the smack pack as-is. I should probably make a starter for it in that case if we're going to split it in 2x20L. I wonder how the other organisms build in a starter? :unsure: I guess there would be enough regardless for them to build up again after the majority of the fermentation is complete?

Yep - thought about that too.
Better to be safe and pitch the whole thing onto 22l
I'll give my own one a crack soon.

I happen to have two old packs of roeslare in the fridge for some Flemish Red experiments (one day), do I see an inaugural brewday at Kooks place coming up? From what I have read about Roeslare is that when you repitch or build too much of a starter with it the balance of bugs changes and so does the flavour profile and that is one of the reasons it was discontinued. Happy to join the experiment.

PS I was going to ferment in the $10 white buckets from Supercheap.

 

[kook]

I'd still like to brew this as soon as possible (3rd March), in order to start the aging as summer starts to end. I don't think it'd be worth having two brew days on the same weekend, unless anyone disagrees?

Regardless, if you're willing to throw in some extra roselare, I'm happy to brew a 63-66L batch and split it three ways.

 

[Chad]

I'm looking at doing a Flanders in the next month or two, and was curious, if I pitch into the primary with Roeselare and then rack into secondary, is there enough of the original pitch transfered into secondary to do it's thing for the next 12 months?

And when does the pellicle form, during primary or some time in secondary?

 

[Stuster]

I'd say you'd be fine doing it that way. There should still be plenty of bugs in there when you transfer. I did it the other way and pitched the Roeselare into the secondary after pitching some US-05 in the primary. But a lot of the US brewers have done what you're intending and it seemed to work out fine.

I just bottled it last week actually, there was a bit of sourness and a fair whack of brett character. I could have left it longer, but I was concerned about it getting too much oxidation being in a cube for so long. It can still mature in the bottle anyway I guess. Since I did it in plastic (and stored it under a friends house over the summer) I didn't get to see the pellicle but as I understand it, that should form in secondary.

I racked 5L of it onto some raspberries to see how that comes out. Might have to leave it for a few months on that now since it's winter. It's certainly a long-term project. :angry:

 

[Chad]

Just doing a bit of a search online for Wyeast Roselare and so far can't find anyone who sells it. Do they still make it?

Has anyone tried the oak stopper in the glass carboy trick yet? How did it go, and does the stopper contain enough bugs from the previous batch to put into a new batch without needing to pitch a fresh packet?

 

[newguy]

Bottom of this page. Oak, even a small amount, is enough to sour a batch if it hasn't been sanitised somehow. When you consider the long maturation time for this kind of beer, even a small innoculation of bacteria will do.

 

[Asher]

Roselare is a current VSS. Most Wyeast stockists worth their salt should have it ATM

 

[ausdb]

Just waking this thread from dormancy! I was part of kooks Flanders Red experiment last year and over the weekend decided to sample what had been going on in my bucket of bugs which has been forloronly aging in my shed for the last year or so. My experiment has so far has consisted of pitching Roeslare directly into primary (a pail fermenter) and then forgetting about it (pretty standard procedure for me). When I lifted the lid I was greeted with a nice goopy pellicle of sorts, and the wine thief sample was reasonably cloudy but with a nice lactic character and the majority of the brett flavours gone from the last time I remembered sampling it, the colour also seemed to be pretty pale and washed out which is what I had remembered from previous samples as well.

Later that day I had a crazy idea to make some beef carbonnade and decided some sour beer woud be in order so drew off a sample from the tap at the bottom of the fermenter and was pretty amazed, I don't know what I picked up with the wine thief earlier as what came out of the tap was crystal clear. I took some photo's and it was hard to get the colour right with the camera flash but it has in reality turned out a beautiful reddish/amber colour.


Flavour wise it seems a bit one dimensional, lactic I think tends to dominate over most other flavours but it is strangely moreish.

My plan now is to bottle some of the batch and then try a solera experiment by adding a belgian dark strong ale to it that never really got all the way down in gravity and was a bit sweet and underbittered, with a bit of luck it might head towards Oud Bruin territory. Has anyone had experience with bottle conditioning beers that have aged for this long with non saccaromyces strains in them? I am not sure whether to add some neutral yeast when I bottle or to just wait and see what happens with it as is. I also hope to transfer the experiment from the pail to a Better bottle and then try the "$8 home brew barrel" setup, but instead of a chairleg I will try and get hold of an old wine barrel stave.
http://madfermentationist.blogspot.com/200...rew-barrel.html

 

[Asher]

Junctyard Flanders Red Update:

My portion of Kooks batch was fermented in the primary with an ale yeast and the Wyeast Roselare blend. This was then racked into polycarbonate and placed in the pLambic Jcave for 12 months. Mine too dropped clear and developed a very thin pellicle.

A few months ago I Also had a taste:- it and it had lost some of the dirty brett character and had begun to show some nicer acidity. It's still much more comparable in flavour, body and strength to a Rodenbach Classic than a Grand Cru though.

I'm not expecting too much more to happen flavour wise as the neutral ale yeast I pitched probably pulled the sugary carpet out from under the Roselare. So I decided to bottle the lot up into champaign bottles last month and begin consumption. This will give me a better chance to document and understand what's happening to the beer over the next couple of years.

I added a small amount of dextrose but no new yeast to the beer. I also bottled a few in PET to keep an eye on condition.

So no doubt you'll see them beginning to appear at upcoming AHB brewdays and the like.

 

[Guest Lurker]

You bring any of that toxic stuff to my place and I'll have you evicted.

 

[warrenlw63]

I may be making one of these myself by necessity rather than by good management.

Got 45 litres of Irish Red. Stuck fast on 1.040 from 1.054 (bad batch of Wyeast 1275) and a puffed up pack of Roselare sitting around.

I might rack 23 litres of this to a glass carboy and just let the Roselare have its way with it. I'm picking a mild infection (smoky phenols) manifesting itself with the Thames Valley. Really weird stuff but even pitching another starter has failed to "restart" it. <_<

This could prove to be salvaging at its finest. :icon_cheers:

Does anybody think that adding the Roselare to a mildly infected beer is going to affect the final product?

Warren -

 

[ausdb]

I guess it depends on what is infected with and how quickly the preferable bugs can take over as roeslare is basically infecting the beer anyway just with a batch of organisms that generally give a satisfactory outcome flavourwise.

 

[Muggus]

Interesting to see this thread dug up, because I recently (mistakenly) created a beer that turned out to be very similar to Rodenbach original.

What I did was blend an Imperial stout and a English style golden ale at a ratio of 4L to 11L in a fermenter and let it sit for a month.
Might be important to note that the Imperial Stout in question was resting on 2 different batches of American oak chips, in its Primary (1 month) and Secondardary (3 months).

Considering I went to the trouble of boiling up the chips in water for 20 minutes before hand, and didn't add an additional yeasts or bacteria...is it possible that such a concoction would create a 'red ale'. Or have I just got 15L of infected brew bottled?

 

[randyrob]

i'm salavating guys, can't wait to try a sample when the time comes.

kook drew me off a sample of one of his flanders beers at his brewday and it was tasting fantastic.

i checked my pLambic this morning and it had like horizontal lightning bolt's running across the top of it

or as a better discription kind of like an aerial view of antartica with broken up icebergs

vote for pedro!

Rob.