First Lager

[zuesy11]

Hi..I am doing my first lager and was wondering if any of you expeirienced lager brewers carry out fermentation to completion including a diacetyl rest in their primary fermentation vessel then rack to another vessel for lagering....Is it that important to rack to a secondary when the primary fermentation is a third of the way to final gravity... i understand autolysis can be a problem and perhaps off flavours could originate by leaving the beer on the trub until fermentation is complete in a primary vessel only...The more times u transfer the greater risk of infection and perhaps oxidation of your brew..thanks

 

[lmccrone]

G'day Mate

I would not say I was an experienced Lager brewer but I have done about 5 batches so far and have been listening to plenty of pod casts from the brewing network to refine my process (I'd highly recommend them).

The theory goes that if you pitch the yeast at around 5 to 6 degrees and then bring it up to 10 degrees over the following 24 hours or so you shouldn't need to do a Diacetyl rest. This is because the yeast produces most of the Diacetyl early in the fermentation and it produces less at the lower temps.

I also haven't been racking to a secondary, I just ferment it out and then chill down to 1 degree for a month and then bottle with good results. Having said that it has been more to do with a lack of an appropriate vessel, I now plan on racking to a 50 L keg once the fermentation has finished and then lagering. We will see how this new plan works.

 

[roverfj1200]

A lot would depend on the yeast you are using. I use s-23 at 16c and also s-189. With these yeasts and at that temp a diacetyl rest
is a waste of time I would think. Also pitch at over 20 c and bring it down. I CC on the cake for a week and once in the bottles and carbed i TRY TO KEEP IT IN THE FRIDGE FOR A FEW WEEKS BEFORE DRINKING. **** CAPS LOCK. anyway hope that helps


Cheers.

 

[zuesy11]

A big thanks for the replies.. i will take your advice on board..Happy drinking

 

[pressure_tested]

is it a good idea to Lager in the keg you intend on serving the beer in? If so, how is this done? Put in the gas for the full lagering process? I don't really know anything about kegging... I'm using a friends keg and he could probably help me with this but he is not very experienced either.

 

[Black n Tan]

I lager in the keg at about 0C rather than in a secondary. Less fiddling and less chance of an infection.

 

[Black n Tan]

Sorry forgot to add that you need to purge your keg with CO2 before racking the beer to remove oxygen that would spoil you beer. You do this by connecting to your cylinder and give it a quick 5 second burst and then pull the release valve. Do this 5 times. Rack your beer to the keg. Then give another 5 second burst and pull the relief valve. Then another 5 second burst and then you can leave your beer disconnected from the cylinder for the lagering period, but you will need to carbonate at the end. Alternatively you can leave it connected to the cylinder for the lagering period so it fully carbonated at the end. it is up to you and what your set up is.

 

[pressure_tested]

I love this forum. Thanks heaps

 

[donburke]

lagering involves dropping the temperature approx. 2/3 through fermentation

if you are waiting for final gravity, then dropping temp, then you are merely cold conditioning

my lagers are drinking 3 weeks after brewing

pitch a large quantity of yeast (refer mr malty or yeastcalc), with both yeast and wort at fermentation temperature (i.e approx. 10 deg for most lager yeasts) and provide plenty of o2 (approx 60 sec @ 1L/min through 0.5 micron stone per 23 litre batch)

fermentation will be all but complete in 10 days, raise the temp to 16 deg or thereabout for days 10-14 (not so much for diacetyl rest, but rather to rouse any sleepy yeast and knock of the last couple of points)

then crash chill for another 3 to 7 days, keg and enjoy

the most important to me is pitching a sizeable yeast colony, pitching it cold, and then maintaining the fermentation temp

 

[Black n Tan]

lagering involves dropping the temperature approx. 2/3 through fermentation

if you are waiting for final gravity, then dropping temp, then you are merely cold conditioning

my lagers are drinking 3 weeks after brewing

pitch a large quantity of yeast (refer mr malty or yeastcalc), with both yeast and wort at fermentation temperature (i.e approx. 10 deg for most lager yeasts) and provide plenty of o2 (approx 60 sec @ 1L/min through 0.5 micron stone per 23 litre batch)

fermentation will be all but complete in 10 days, raise the temp to 16 deg or thereabout for days 10-14 (not so much for diacetyl rest, but rather to rouse any sleepy yeast and knock of the last couple of points)

then crash chill for another 3 to 7 days, keg and enjoy

the most important to me is pitching a sizeable yeast colony, pitching it cold, and then maintaining the fermentation temp

Don, I follow a fairly similar process as you have explained above. Just curious as to how long you cold condition in the keg before drinking (say a bo or german pils) and what temp?

 

[chefeffect]

The theory goes that if you pitch the yeast at around 5 to 6 degrees and then bring it up to 10 degrees over the following 24 hours

This is what I do, start either right on fermenting temp or 3-4 deg's bellow and bring up to the correct fermentation temp.

lagering involves dropping the temperature approx. 2/3 through fermentation

if you are waiting for final gravity, then dropping temp, then you are merely cold conditioning

What do you mean by dropping the temperature? Just curious. I have read conflicting information and wonder what you do? A few degrees a day or just crash it out. I had a debate with Manticle probably 4 months ago about this same thing the difference between cold conditioning and lagering.

 

[chefeffect]

One more thing, I like to rack to secondary after complete fermentation and after crash chilling for 3 days, I don't bother dropping the temp slowly, rightly or wrongly. The reason I rack after a few days is so I can wash the yeast and to clear the beer slightly, then after racking it clears out a lot quicker. I have read Palmer write that he just lagers in primary and has had no issues, even winning competition etc. etc. I also lager at 3 deg for 5-10 weeks.

 

[Florian]

lagering involves dropping the temperature approx. 2/3 through fermentation

if you are waiting for final gravity, then dropping temp, then you are merely cold conditioning

my lagers are drinking 3 weeks after brewing

pitch a large quantity of yeast (refer mr malty or yeastcalc), with both yeast and wort at fermentation temperature (i.e approx. 10 deg for most lager yeasts) and provide plenty of o2 (approx 60 sec @ 1L/min through 0.5 micron stone per 23 litre batch)

fermentation will be all but complete in 10 days, raise the temp to 16 deg or thereabout for days 10-14 (not so much for diacetyl rest, but rather to rouse any sleepy yeast and knock of the last couple of points)

then crash chill for another 3 to 7 days, keg and enjoy

the most important to me is pitching a sizeable yeast colony, pitching it cold, and then maintaining the fermentation temp

I second that, great advice. Only thing I do slightly different is pitching 4 or so degrees below ferment temp and let it rise.
I usually pitch at 5-6 for a ferment at 9.5.
With a big healthy starter and a good dose of o2 it's at full krausen within 18 hours.

I find it hard to overpitch lagers but so damn easy to underpitch. Fermentation should really be done and dusted in 7-10 days.

Another thing I started doing recently is dropping the temp from 16 down to 10 over 2-3 days, then from 10 down to 2 at 1 degree per day.
Not sure on the benefit flavour wise, but it seems to greatly improve yeast health for re-pitching from my subjective observations.

 

[manticle]

Lager just means keep or store cool. Within those parameters, there are many different techniques.

I do not consider myself experienced with lagers but the best I've made were pitched cooler than intended ferment temps with large active starters, fermented cool, warmed slowly at about 3/4 fg, held at ale temps for 2-3 days, then slowly dropped back to near 0 and held thrte for 3-4 weeks minimum.

 

[donburke]

Don, I follow a fairly similar process as you have explained above. Just curious as to how long you cold condition in the keg before drinking (say a bo or german pils) and what temp?

my keg fridge sits at 3 degrees and i very rarely force carb, so i suppose it takes around a week to carb at serving pressure, although its usually quicker for a lager given the residual co2 retained in solution from the lower ferment temps

 

[donburke]

This is what I do, start either right on fermenting temp or 3-4 deg's bellow and bring up to the correct fermentation temp.


What do you mean by dropping the temperature? Just curious. I have read conflicting information and wonder what you do? A few degrees a day or just crash it out. I had a debate with Manticle probably 4 months ago about this same thing the difference between cold conditioning and lagering.

dont know if we are still allowed to post external links, but you can read up on conventional fermentation in a german lager brewery on braukaiser

in summary, you rack the beer off the primary yeast cake when approx 2/3 of final gravity has been reached, as you still have yeast in suspension, it is this yeast that will finish the job off, and you start dropping the temp slowly to avoid shocking what yeast you carried through to secondary

its quite contrary to what many homebrewers (including myself) do, as we tend to raise the temp toward the end of fermentation

i would exercise caution if bottling, as there is a chance you may have put your yeast to sleep during the process, i would only attempt this if kegging

 

[chefeffect]

Thanks donburke, appreciate it. So you drop the temp down to lager temps say 2-3 deg around 2/3 through fermentation before the D-rest on days 10-14? Sorry I am a bit slow, or over think things, not sure.

 

[donburke]

Thanks donburke, appreciate it. So you drop the temp down to lager temps say 2-3 deg around 2/3 through fermentation before the D-rest on days 10-14? Sorry I am a bit slow, or over think things, not sure.

i dont use the conventional german lager method

i simply pitch and ferment the wort at 10 degrees for 7 to 10 days, then raise the temp for 2 or 3 days, then crash chill for 3 to 7 days (as close as i can get to 0 degrees) all in primary

have confidence in the fact that you have pitched sufficient yeast and given them a healthy environment (temp, o2 and nutrient) and they will produce a clean and complete lager ferment in a short period of time

if i've reached final gravity and the yeast have cleaned up after themselves, i want to shock them (within reason), so much that they drop out of solution and settle to the bottom of the fermenter helping clear up my beer, so i'm not interested in dropping the temp slowly

 

[chefeffect]

I found that web page you mentioned, great read thanks for that, it has answered a lot of questions. I guess the conflicting information I was getting was just different processes for removing the diacetyl, for instance the 2/3 fermented wort with slow decreases in temp of 0.5-0.8deg per day till lagering temps are achieved, doesn't use traditional "temp ramping d-rest used by homebrewers". As the slow lowering of temperature doesn't shock the yeast into stopping, and over the next 3-4 weeks at 3-5deg (lager temps) the d-rest is achieved by the yeast still being active at lower temps and removing the diacetyl while the yeast finishes off the remaining 1/3 of fermentables. Yet the home brew version which seems easier is to do a "temp ramping d-rest" just before fermentation is complete, finish the fermentation and then crash out. I think I will stick to the easy version for awhile, yours looks good too will give that a crack with the next one in a few days time.

Edit: Sorry long sentences due to brain dump lol Also edited alive to active as the yeast is still alive after crashing.

 

[Stimsoni]

Thought I'd revive this one instead of creating a new thread as this is my first lager as well.

I've done a pilsner with OG of 64 which has been sitting in the primary for the last 7 days and the gravity hasn't changed. It's only a 8 litre batch which has almost a whole pack of liquid yeast in it which was pitched cold.

I didn't use a starter so not sure if that is what the problem is. I guess the big question is how do I fix it? Do I start over or can I get some more yeast, create a starter and re-pitch or is there something else I can do.

Edit: a few more details.
The wort was 10 degrees when I pitch.
Yeast pitched straight from fridge.
A few days ago I raised temp to 12 degrees hoping to get some movement.