First attempt at lagering

[Killer Brew]

My fridge is empty and I have built up solid stocks of beer to keep me going for a month or so. Seems like the perfect time for me to try doing my first lager! Also tried my hand at creating my own recipe after doing some reading. Would love some thoughts on the below before I order the ingredients.

In particular:
1) the total IBU's at 24 is below style guidelines of 35 - 45 (seems quite high?)
2) going to try mashing at 63deg (down from 67deg previously) as I have been finishing higher than desired
3) the yeast calculator on Brewer's Friend has me needing 375b cells whereas the pack only provides 49b cells. Have never done a starter before but it appears I need to do so here?


Title: Bohemian Like You

Brew Method: Partial Mash
Style Name: Bohemian Pilsener
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 21 liters (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 11 liters
Boil Gravity: 1.089
Efficiency: 80% (brew house)

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.047
Final Gravity: 1.011
ABV (standard): 4.69%
IBU (tinseth): 24.21
SRM (ebcmorey): 9.82

FERMENTABLES:
1.5 kg - Liquid Malt Extract - Pilsen (40.5%)
1 kg - German - Pilsner (27%)
1 kg - German - Vienna (27%)
0.2 kg - United Kingdom - Crystal 30L (5.4%)

HOPS:
50 g - Saaz, Type: Pellet, AA: 3.5, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 14.83
25 g - Saaz, Type: Pellet, AA: 3.5, Use: Boil for 30 min, IBU: 5.7
25 g - Saaz, Type: Pellet, AA: 3.5, Use: Boil for 15 min, IBU: 3.68

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Decoction, Temp: 63 C, Time: 60 min, Amount: 9 L

YEAST:
Wyeast - Bohemian Lager 2124
Starter: Yes
Form: Liquid
Attenuation (avg): 75%
Flocculation: Medium
Optimum Temp: 8.89 - 14.44 C
Fermentation Temp: 10 C
Pitch Rate: 1.5 (M cells / ml / deg P)

Thanks, KB

 

[jimmy_jangles]

2) going to try mashing at 63deg (down from 67deg previously) as I have been finishing higher than desired

I wouldn't be changing the mash temp to reduce the gravity, overshooting means your just more efficient than you thought, i would be adjusting the grain bill to reduce it ( although i wouldn't reduce it al all, i brew a stronger lager, 5.5 - 6% and bloody love it!)

 

[Killer Brew]

I wouldn't be changing the mash temp to reduce the gravity, overshooting means your just more efficient than you thought, i would be adjusting the grain bill to reduce it ( although i wouldn't reduce it al all, i brew a stronger lager, 5.5 - 6% and bloody love it!)

Thanks JJ. My issue has been finishing higher than I wanted (around 1016 to 1022) and ending up with a sweeter taste than desired. I have cut back the Crystal quite a bit but the advice given to me in another thread was that I was mashing too high and a mash at 63deg should give me a drier beer.

 

[TheWiggman]

Might be a minor misunderstanding there jimmy. A lower mash temp will achieve a lower FG, which is a different concept to efficiency. The OG will remain the same but will have a different mix of fermentable and non-fermentable sugars in the wort.
KB, I'd push for the target IBU with Saaz. Bohemian pilsners are more bitter than you might think, but certainly don't taste it if done well. Though I think strictly speaking with Vienna and crystal in there you're moving away from a Bo pils, so don't worry about adhering the guidelines too hard.
Most importantly - lost of 02 in the wort, pitch fresh and BIG, and use yeast nutrient if you have it.

 

[Black n Tan]

Too much Vienna. I would only use about 10%. I don't think crystal has a place in a pils. This style has some malt sweetness that is balanced by the IBU. So I agree with wiggman to increase the IBU to the target range. Regarding the mash temp, I think 63C will be too low for this style, may be bump it up to 65C. This will produce a little more malt sweetness and body.

 

[Killer Brew]

Cheers all. So will drop the Crystal, up the pils & saaz, reconsider mash temp.

Will i need to step up all the way to 375b yeast cells or can i do less but add nutrient? Do i pitch at room temp and slowly take down to 10deg?

 

[Black n Tan]

You need to make a starter and should target your 375B. This is very important. I prefer to pitch cold to minimise ester development, but others have had success pitching warm.

 

[Killer Brew]

You need to make a starter and should target your 375B. This is very important. I prefer to pitch cold to minimise ester development, but others have had success pitching warm.

When pitching cold do you get the starter to the same temp first?

 

[verysupple]

You can pitch a smaller amount of yeast at room temp and then take it down, but I'm not a fan of that. Also, I think 49 b cells into 21 L is pushing it a bit for that technique. I'm firmly in the camp of pitch at low temps and pitch BIG. Before I built my stir plate I would either make two shaken juice bottle starters or do two steps in a single juice bottle. It got the job done nicely. The stir plate just lets me do it a bit more easily now.

 

[verysupple]

When pitching cold do you get the starter to the same temp first?

Because starters for lagers are typically pretty big I think it's better to chill them down in the fridge, decant the spent beer, and just pitch the creamy yeast. So in that situation the yeast is actually a bit colder than the wort, but that's a much better situation than pitching warm yeast into cold wort. Any way you decide to do it the temp difference should be as small as possible, though. Ideally within a couple of degrees. But that goes for any yeast strain, not just lagers.

 

[Black n Tan]

Because starters for lagers are typically pretty big I think it's better to chill them down in the fridge, decant the spent beer, and just pitch the creamy yeast. So in that situation the yeast is actually a bit colder than the wort, but that's a much better situation than pitching warm yeast into cold wort. Any way you decide to do it the temp difference should be as small as possible, though. Ideally within a couple of degrees. But that goes for any yeast strain, not just lagers.

yep that is the approach I would take, chill and decant spent wort then pitch yeast sediment.

 

[Blind Dog]

as far as Ive been able to work out so far, the classic Bo Pils (budvar, Pilsner urquell and staropramen) are 100% Pilsner malt and 100% Saaz hops. The HB revipes that add Vienna, carapils etc. seem to do that to get closer to replicating the malt profile that comes from using bohemian Pilsner malt and a decoction mash. To my tastes at least, I've had better results using 100% weyermann Pilsner malt and drawing 1.5l of unhopped wort and boiling it hard without burning (left with about 200ml of syrup) then adding it back than using Vienna, munich or spec malts.

Bitterness needs to be up over 35 IBU IMO to balance the malt

Agree with the other comments re size of starter, aeration etc

Personally, I'd filter it as well post fermentation or at least think about finings (provably polyclar, maybe gelatine) post lagering, as I reckon a Pilsner needs to be crystal clear

 

[Rocker1986]

Boil Size: 11 liters
Boil Gravity: 1.089

Seems a pretty high boil gravity. Any way of bringing it down? :unsure:

It's cool to see others having a crack at Bo Pils, I've just begun messing around with a recipe myself, although I have brewed lagers before. All this beer we drink in the name of experimentation eh

 

[TheWiggman]

High boil gravity because he's doing extract. 11 litres in the pot then watered down to 21 litres as per recipe specs.

 

[Killer Brew]

as far as Ive been able to work out so far, the classic Bo Pils (budvar, Pilsner urquell and staropramen) are 100% Pilsner malt and 100% Saaz hops. The HB revipes that add Vienna, carapils etc. seem to do that to get closer to replicating the malt profile that comes from using bohemian Pilsner malt and a decoction mash. To my tastes at least, I've had better results using 100% weyermann Pilsner malt and drawing 1.5l of unhopped wort and boiling it hard without burning (left with about 200ml of syrup) then adding it back than using Vienna, munich or spec malts.

Bitterness needs to be up over 35 IBU IMO to balance the malt

Agree with the other comments re size of starter, aeration etc

Personally, I'd filter it as well post fermentation or at least think about finings (provably polyclar, maybe gelatine) post lagering, as I reckon a Pilsner needs to be crystal clear

Don't have filtering capabilities just now but will look to use finings. Interesting technique with boiling some unhopped wort. Given my total boil is expected to be around 11L though would taking 1.5L out to boil separately leave my hopped wort a little low? I mash in a 15L pot and boil in a 20L pot.

 

[Rocker1986]

High boil gravity because he's doing extract. 11 litres in the pot then watered down to 21 litres as per recipe specs.

I figured that, but my understanding is that high boil gravities like that don't give very good hop utilisation, so you have to use way more hops to get the same bitterness than you would if the gravity was somewhere around 1040. Or is that another myth? :unsure:

On the subject of finings, I just bottled my first pilsner which I used Polyclar in, on Monday (bottled cold). Absolute clearest beer I've seen at bottling time, apart from the expected haze from yeast still in suspension. Will be trying one in a couple of weeks to see how it's tasting and looking, but promising signs.

 

[Killer Brew]

Thanks all. My adjusted recipe as follows.

Title: Bohemian Like You

Brew Method: Partial Mash
Style Name: Bohemian Pilsener
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 21 liters (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 11 liters
Boil Gravity: 1.097
Efficiency: 80% (brew house)

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.051
Final Gravity: 1.012
ABV (standard): 5.17%
IBU (tinseth): 36.43
SRM (ebcmorey): 6.61

FERMENTABLES:
1.5 kg - Liquid Malt Extract - Pilsen (37.5%)
2 kg - German - Pilsner (50%)
0.5 kg - German - Vienna (12.5%)

HOPS:
100 g - Saaz, Type: Pellet, AA: 3.5, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 27.68
25 g - Saaz, Type: Pellet, AA: 3.5, Use: Boil for 30 min, IBU: 5.32
25 g - Saaz, Type: Pellet, AA: 3.5, Use: Boil for 15 min, IBU: 3.43

MASH GUIDELINES:

70 mins @ 65deg
20 mins @ 69deg
10 mins @ 78 deg


YEAST:
Wyeast - Bohemian Lager 2124
Starter: Yes
Form: Liquid
Attenuation (avg): 75%
Flocculation: Medium
Optimum Temp: 8.89 - 14.44 C
Fermentation Temp: 10 C
Pitch Rate: 1.5 (M cells / ml / deg P)

 

[Black n Tan]

Thanks all. My adjusted recipe as follows.

Title: Bohemian Like You

Brew Method: Partial Mash
Style Name: Bohemian Pilsener
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 21 liters (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 11 liters
Boil Gravity: 1.097
Efficiency: 80% (brew house)

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.051
Final Gravity: 1.012
ABV (standard): 5.17%
IBU (tinseth): 36.43
SRM (ebcmorey): 6.61

FERMENTABLES:
1.5 kg - Liquid Malt Extract - Pilsen (37.5%)
2 kg - German - Pilsner (50%)
0.5 kg - German - Vienna (12.5%)

HOPS:
100 g - Saaz, Type: Pellet, AA: 3.5, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 27.68
25 g - Saaz, Type: Pellet, AA: 3.5, Use: Boil for 30 min, IBU: 5.32
25 g - Saaz, Type: Pellet, AA: 3.5, Use: Boil for 15 min, IBU: 3.43

MASH GUIDELINES:

70 mins @ 65deg
20 mins @ 69deg
10 mins @ 78 deg


YEAST:
Wyeast - Bohemian Lager 2124
Starter: Yes
Form: Liquid
Attenuation (avg): 75%
Flocculation: Medium
Optimum Temp: 8.89 - 14.44 C
Fermentation Temp: 10 C
Pitch Rate: 1.5 (M cells / ml / deg P)

Looks great. Good luck.