Fermenters(thin V Wide)

[Mr Bond]

I am aware that the shape of a vessel has an effect on how the yeast performs.

I do recall reading somewhere on a forum that a tall narrow barrel was better than a wider one.

This leads me to a few questions.

If the volume and therefore the weight of the liquid are the same and the only variable is the surface area of the base of the vessel,what forces are at play that could effect yeast performance.

Which is preffered,tall and thin or wider and broader?Old photos of breweries quite often show wide shallow fermenters as opposed to modern stainless tanks which are thinner.

How marked is the difference between beers made in either vessel,and does it really make much difference at our level?

Oh yeah,reason for my question is I'm unable to fit my big barrel into the ferm fridge and if I want to crank out a brew of 20 litres this summer I'm going to have to use a 25 litre blue cube which are quite tall and narrow with a much smaller base.

Any one with some real info(maybe one of you pro brewers or ballarat grads) on this subject or even better a link to a site with some data and reading material,post away.

Cheers Dave

 

[MHB]

Brauluver
At our level I dont think it will make a lot of difference, provided that the fermenter is a reasonably normal shape.

The information out there is mainly for large cylindro-conical vessel (CCV); after years of research it is generally agreed that 2:1 Wort depth to width is the optimum.

This is particularly important when the tank is being used as a uni-tank (primary and lagering in 1 tank); during primary the convection is up the centre and down the walls, during cold conditioning or lagering the convection reverses.

This is all dependant on having cone and side cooling in a CCV and wont apply in a fridge, where the temperature should be relatively even.

The best reference I have found is is Kunze "Technology Brewing and Malting" 3rd International Edition , a large portion of chapter 4 relates to the design, operation and cleaning of CCV's. Available from VLB.

MHB

 

[Mr Bond]

Brauluver
At our level I dont think it will make a lot of difference, provided that the fermenter is a reasonably normal shape.

Thats what I thought may be the case!

Cheers for the info

 

[Paleman]

Thats what I thought may be the case!

Cheers for the info

Brau.......Salad Fingers only uses a rusty old bin. :blink:

He makes a top New Zealand Stout........just ask Jeremy Fisher !!! :beerbang:

 

[Asher]

At a homebrewing level there was some testing done in the US (IIRC) where some differences were noted. I think they compared fermenting in a cornie keg(3:1) with a glass carboy(1:1). At the small scale, I personally think the differences were noted no due to the height ratio being different but the fact the cornie kegs dimensions (greater surface area) ment it was affected adversely by temp fluctuations compared to the carboy..... If you have a good temp controlled fridge, this won't be an issue....
I'm about to buy a plastic CCV which will hold up to 80 litres. 2:1 ratio for 40 litres, but will be more like 3.5:1 if an 80 litre batch is done. without this compromise it would mean 2 CCV's and a bigger fridge to fit it in...

Asher for now

 

[Voosher]

At a homebrewing level there was some testing done in the US (IIRC) where some differences were noted. I think they compared fermenting in a cornie keg(3:1) with a glass carboy(1:1). At the small scale, I personally think the differences were noted no due to the height ratio being different but the fact the cornie kegs dimensions (greater surface area) ment it was affected adversely by temp fluctuations compared to the carboy..... If you have a good temp controlled fridge, this won't be an issue....
I'm about to buy a plastic CCV which will hold up to 80 litres. 2:1 ratio for 40 litres, but will be more like 3.5:1 if an 80 litre batch is done. without this compromise it would mean 2 CCV's and a bigger fridge to fit it in...

Asher for now

Of course a classic historical example of wide fermenters and temperature control are the California Steam beers where wide open ferments were used to help disipate the heat of the ferment and maximise the effects of cool'ish ambient temps.

For the homebrewer I'm with the consensus. Not much of an issue especially with reasonable temp control. I've generally heard the bias to height is preferable over width. Most commercial breweries I've seen have taller narrower fermenters.

 

[tangent]

there was some info in Brew like a Monk about using fermenters that are wider than they are deep. Not just for cooling purposes. I was thinking about laying a fermenter on it's side but it's probably not worth the hassle.

 

[floppinab]

Old photos of breweries quite often show wide shallow fermenters as opposed to modern stainless tanks which are thinner.

Cheers Dave

This is interesting, I'm 90% sure Coopers Sparkling at the original Leabrook site used large, backyard swimming pool sized open air fermenters made out of wood, as you have described, very wide and shallow.

 

[Weizguy]

The wider and (usually) open fermentors of old are said to maximise esters. I read this in the BYO magazine (July 2006) article on open fermentors, and this is confirmed on the Warner book on German Wheat Beer.

The tall thin fermentors churn the brew out quickly, and without a lot of esters. Ideal for a mega-brewery.

My 2 cents
Seth

 

[tangent]

The wider and (usually) open fermentors of old are said to maximise esters.

Ahah, that was the point in the Monk book.

 

[Mr Bond]

Thanks for all the info everyone.

I will be restricted to a taller thinner ferm vessel so I'll see what prevails.
I'm not too concerned as the 1st 2 out of the blocks in jan will be 3068 weizens, and taming the esters on that strain would be a challenge for any vessel. :lol: