Ferment, condition and pressurise in one vessel

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I can definitely back up Keg King on the "you have to have your own staff on the ground" statement. Over the years I've worked on projects where the manufacturing and assembly has been done in Asian countries. It's not good enough to trust the manufacturers. It's not even good enough to send someone over to supervise the production runs. All sorts of dodgy stuff goes on. If you are not directly in control of the QA process with your own trusted staff, you are going to run into trouble. Ideally you want to check pretty much every item that goes through and preferably at multiple points in the production line to ensure that there are no hidden surprises. For large volumes you want a statistically significant sample population.

As an example, about a decade ago we had a person go to China to supervise the production run of some electronic devices. Initially the pilot run produced product that was a bit on the rough side. We worked with the manufacturer to fix up the issues and ended up with samples that were supposed to be fixed up and representative of mass production. Once the production run started, our "delegate" on the ground was walked through the factory, shown everything working and inspected and OK'ed a few products coming off the production line. Then they were taken out to lunch. When they wanted to go back to the factory after lunch, they were told that the manufacturer has arranged a special entertainment / tour, whatever (corporate jolly) for them and that they can go back to the factory the next day. The next day, when they returned to the factory, they were told that the factory was working all night and the run was completed ahead of schedule. They brought out a few boxes for our rep. to inspect and it all looked fine. We had a few dozen boxes flown in for pre-release testing and the rest was loaded onto a ship. Fast forward a couple of months. The main shipment has been all paid for, delivered, cleared through customs and warehoused. Grabbed a few boxes from the warehouse and inspected them. Fark! The manufacturing was sloppy. Sharp edges on the enclosures, stripped screws, finger prints and smudges on front panel displays. On the inside, we found that the manufacturer did a dodgy and replaced proper twisted pair, shielded cables for front panel high-speed USB ports with a bit of cheap and nasty cable and did not correctly ground the connector. There were many other issues as well. We were screwed. The manufacturer was paid and did not want to help in any way. The cost of making right on each unit, including labour was about 30% of the original manufacturing cost and about 10% of the product was a total write off where it was only good enough for spare parts.

This was not the first or last time I've seen issues with Asian manufacturers. It's happened many times in China, Korea and other Asian countries.

So yeah, having stuff made in places like China or Korea might be cheap, but it's a lottery with very bad odds. You can improve those odds by having local presence and only sourcing components. Have total control over the final product wherever possible.
 
I'm giddy like a school girl about this development. How did I miss the link back in October when it first came up. Oh well, and with the rough pricing, I'm even more interested. I haven't gone keg yet, but this would be a very good solution to my dilemma (to keg or not to keg, that is the question). This is that rose by another name. Thanks Keg King for the development into this idea. If only it fit in my fermenting fridge..... Now I'll be forced to find a cheap arse fridge that will fit a couple of these babies in. Oh yes I will......

EDIT - and thanks Jeremy for bringing it to our attention (even if some of us missed it the first time :ph34r: )

2nd EDIT - He must be a good bloke, because he's from Adelaide and knows which is the best brewery in Munich. Edelstoff all the way!
 
Jesus..... I think I might hold off on my brewbucket purchase and buy two of the fermentasaurus when they're released instead!
 
KegKing said:
With regards to the Fermentasaurus this is an exciting new product that as pointed out by some of the other forum members it's a product that is made in Springvale at our new blow molding and R&D facility.
We have been using these fermenters our self for a while now and we have been doing a lot of testing.

Being a pressure vessel the safety requirements are significantly more than your typical plastic fermenter.

We seem to be going a different directly to a lot of other manufacturers at the moment. If you look at SS Brewtech, iMake, Blickmann Eng. These guys all seem to be working on liquid cooled conical fermenters but in our opinion it's not the way to go. Glycol chillers can be a bit complicated and they do not heat and cool the fermenter as well as a fermenting fridge. They also draw a lot of power and its expensive to get sufficient insulation to be able to crash chill so you have limitations on how cold you can make the fermenter.

With these new fermenters we have decided that we will design a dedicated fermenting fridge to house these new fermenters.

There was not a standard fridge size that we were able to get "off the shelf" so we have designed our own fridge model which will have inbuilt heating and cooling. This new fridge design will not be available until late 2017

Fridge%20for%20conical%20fermenter.JPG


The fermenters themselves will start to flow out to the retail outlets in Feb next year.

The RRP on the fermenters will be about $129 for the basic kit and that will include everything in this image:
Fermentasaurus-Gravity-System.jpg



We will also sell a "pressure kit" for the fermenter that will include all the things in this image and this will be about AUD$40 or something:
Fermentasaurus-Pressure-Lid.jpg


We are still making some minor modifications to the floating dip tube and also the butterfly dump valve which is the main reason why we have not released the Fermentasaurus already but we are extremely close to having everything finished.
Looking good - at least one of these has my name written all over it.

Will you be adding volume markings to the production version?

Seconding the CIP suggestion, too.
 
From the face book page

The breakthrough in this new design means that customers can finally naturally carbonate their clear conditioned beer in the Fermentasaurus and dispense directly to tap. No need to carbonate beer in the keg or bottle. You can drink directly from the Fermentasaurus saving time and hassle.

If these units are designed with "Fermenting under Pressure" in mind the "Pressure Kit" version only appears to have a pressure relief valve. Ideally you would also want some sort of "spudding valve"to control the fermentation pressure.

Also if/when fermenting "all grain wort" the sediment/yeast bottle at 500mils will be on the small side based on my experience with the Williamwarn which has a 900mil sediment/yeast bottle.

A third point is that some sort of "Injection Port" would be useful to allow the introduction of "clarifying agent" without the need to de-pressurize and remove the top thereby exposing the brew to Oxygen. No big deal but one of the selling points with this sort of system is not exposing the finished beer to any oxygen and introducing a source of oxidation.

Wobbly
 
wobbly said:
From the face book page

The breakthrough in this new design means that customers can finally naturally carbonate their clear conditioned beer in the Fermentasaurus and dispense directly to tap. No need to carbonate beer in the keg or bottle. You can drink directly from the Fermentasaurus saving time and hassle.

If these units are designed with "Fermenting under Pressure" in mind the "Pressure Kit" version only appears to have a pressure relief valve. Ideally you would also want some sort of "spudding valve"to control the fermentation pressure.

Also if/when fermenting "all grain wort" the sediment/yeast bottle at 500mils will be on the small side based on my experience with the Williamwarn which has a 900mil sediment/yeast bottle.

A third point is that some sort of "Injection Port" would be useful to allow the introduction of "clarifying agent" without the need to de-pressurize and remove the top thereby exposing the brew to Oxygen. No big deal but one of the selling points with this sort of system is not exposing the finished beer to any oxygen and introducing a source of oxidation.

Wobbly
Wobbly,
Changing the sediment bottle more frequently is a minor hindrance(certainly not $7000 worth), and I don't see how you missed the 2 ball lock fittings next to the relief valve, KK have a ball lock spunding valve, and either ball lock could be used for injection of clarification liquids.

So the only point to your post I can see, is to again promote your favourite system.

quit while your ahead already.
 
It has ball locks on it, there is your injection port. Just use a little pet bottle with a carb cap. And KK sell a spudding valve with a ball lock too.
 
malt junkie said:
Have Keg King considered a thermowell for these?
You could weld one on yourself fairly easily, but that would probably bugger the pressure rating.

The blurb from KK above appears to indicate that these are blow moulded (as are most PET items), in that case incorporating a thermowell would probably make de-moulding a hassle.
 
malt junkie said:
Wobbly,
Changing the sediment bottle more frequently is a minor hindrance Agree - Just saying if you are producing/marketing a new system so why not cover/eliminate as many minor hindrances at the out set

I don't see how you missed the 2 ball lock fittings next to the relief valve, KK have a ball lock spunding valve I didn't miss them but nothing in the current "blurb" indicate you should/would also need to purchase something else to control the fermentation/carbonation pressure phases

and either ball lock could be used for injection of clarification liquids. Sure you could but as above nothing in the info released to date would indicate that this is how you would do it or what you would need to make it work.

So the only point to your post I can see, is to again promote your favourite system. Not promoting anything just pointing out that "another" system that ferments under pressure, clarifys, carbonates and serves beer straight from the one unit has a few minor hindrances that someone/anyone developing something similar could learn from and work to eliminate

quit while your ahead already. Man I am already so far ahead that it doesn't matter

Cheers

Wobbly
 
Let's just discuss the system at hand. There's no reason wobbly's experience with pressurised fermentation isn't relevant, nor should his original comments incite antagonism.
 
Dae Tripper said:
It has ball locks on it, there is your injection port. Just use a little pet bottle with a carb cap.....................(snip)
Maybe you could use a suction gun from an auto shop. http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/Product/Toledo-Suction-Gun-500ml-305227/SPO82509

These are essentially a giant syringe with a bit of tubing. I'm thinking that with a disconnect on the end, you could fill it with your fining solution and then invert it while you expel the air, a bit like nurses do with vaccines etc. This way you would not be connecting anything which contains air. Of course, it would have to be OK with the fermentation pressure and not have stinky rubber seals.

I must have too much time on my hands. I'm coming up with ghetto add-ons for products which haven't been released yet.
 
manticle said:
Let's just discuss the system at hand. There's no reason wobbly's experience with pressurised fermentation isn't relevant, nor should his original comments incite antagonism.
You're right manticle, wobbly's experience with pressurised fermentation is relevant and he made some good points.I shouldn't have been such an arse about it just trying to point out that you could do essentially the same thing for $158.95.
 
Sure. And that point is valid too IF discussing pros and cons of each system.

Since this system is still being developed and one of the developers reads and posts in this thread, wobbly's suggestions may benefit future purchasers who will get bang for their buck.

Wasn't just you by the way brownsworthy but thanks for acknowledging.
 
Cheers mate,I'll hopefully be able to speak of those pros and cons of the fermetasaurus as I will be purchasing one when released. I guess until I have experience with pressurised fermentation I'll keep my biased(because im a tight arse) opinions to myself.
 
Keg king. Just a thought, how UV stable is the long chain PET plastics you use. Obviously not a big deal if it's not, but another selling point if it's been tested and good to know for the purchaser if it's not.
 
KegKing said:
We have been using these fermenters our self for a while now and we have been doing a lot of testing.

We are still making some minor modifications to the floating dip tube and also the butterfly dump valve which is the main reason why we have not released the Fermentasaurus already but we are extremely close to having everything finished.
Hey KegKing, how's the testing of the fermenters going? Any update on a release date? Also, for the design of the fridge, maybe include an internal fan to increase the efficiency of the heating/cooling (telling you how to suck eggs probably).
 
Jack of all biers said:
Keg king. Just a thought, how UV stable is the long chain PET plastics you use. Obviously not a big deal if it's not, but another selling point if it's been tested and good to know for the purchaser if it's not.
Surprised by the lack of comments about the fermentation chamber, that sounds great.

But regarding the conical, I worry about UV skunking the beer, has any testing been done regarding that?
 
I've done some informal testing on skunking.

It takes less than 5 minutes in direct Australian sunlight in winter to skunk about 400mL of beer in a clear container. And not just a slight hint of skunk, but a full on "That's not the beer I poured 5 minutes ago! Yuck!" reaction.

If your container is not a UV blocking type, you'd better keep it in the dark or only expose it to LED lighting. I'd say that even bottling the beer in a brightly lit room has the potential to wreak havoc if your fermenter/priming vessel is not UV safe.

I would have not believed how bad light strike can get until I tested it for myself.
 
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