DRY IRISH STOUT (BIAB)

[Hez]

Hi,

For my 3rd beer ever I want to make a Dry Irish style Stout and I want to make my own recipe... more or less... you will see.

I've read this article: "How to brew a stout"
http://beersmith.com/blog/2008/03/14/brewing-an-irish-stout-beer-recipe/

And I've taken ideas for the recipe from these two:
http://beersmithrecipes.com/viewrecipe/64738/guinness-clone-4
http://www.beersmith.com/Recipes2/recipe_153.htm

I have a lot of Chinhook hops from previous beers so I want to use them instead of buying more and more hops.
I guess being only bittering hops they wont leave a weird flavour, just bitterness... and they are used on pale ales, why don't use them for a stout?
What would happen if I make the proportion from the second recipe (standard dry irish stout) ?

"Conversion from Goldings to Chinhook":

18.92l batch size -> 63.78g goldings
...cross multiplication...
10l batch size -> 33.65g goldings
...so far so good...
goldings 5% alpha
chinhook 11.8% alpha
...inverse proportion...
11.8/5=2.36
33.65/2.36 = 14.25g of Chinhook! jejeje

Is that right? What do you think? Is it going to be weird? why?

In the first recipe (Guiness Clone 4) it asks for baking powder into the mash. I guess it's for modifying the water itself. I live in Mosman (Sydney area, NSW).
I don't know much about geology or chemistry, but Baking Powder is basically Sodium bicarbonate (base) and corn flour, I guess it should be used if the water is too acidic.
Sydney is mostly sandstone, so it has silicon, meaning... it is acidic! and so will be the water. So yes, in order to compensate for this, maybe it would be interesting to use a little baking powder, I guess.
Do you think it's a good idea to add this to my recipe? I've calculated the proportion for my batch (based into this other recipe) just in case.
What's the most important quality of water for the beer: hardness, pH or mineral content ? What's the ideal water? Does it depend on the kind of beer? What adjustements do you do here in Sydney?

Taking into account the previous 2 brews, i've scheduled the addition of water in four times because my pot is too small (15l) and my girlfriend doesn't allow me to buy a bigger one... ¬¬

About the chocolate malt, although I'm following the second one, the generic stout, I thought it would be a good addition...
I want it as dark as I can, I'm not concerned about getting a perfect clone, I just want a good stout to my taste.


This is the calculated data for my recipe:

DRY IRISH STOUT (BIAB)

WATER (10l batch):
12.31l mash water
2l sparge
1l 30' after boil starts
1l while chilling

GRAIN (total 2160g):
1200g pale malt
480g barley flaked
240g black barley stout
240g chocolate malt gr600 450srm

MASH (60'-70'):
baking powder 2.86g
strike temp 68º
50' 67.7º
10' mash out 75.5º
sparge 75.5º

BOIL (60')
60' chinhook 11.8% 14.25g
10' 1/2 deltafloc

YEAST:
Irish Ale (Wyeast Labs #1084 or White Labs #WLP004 or the one Dave has! )

I did the calculation using http://www.biabcalculator.com/
These are the data I used and I got from there:
Grain Bill 2160 g
Grain Temp 20º
Batch Size 10 l
Mash Temp 67,7º
Boil Time 60'
Trub 2 l
BoilOff Rate 3,5 l/hour
Grain Absorption 0,375525 l/kg of grain

Total Water Needed 16.31 Liters
Strike Water Temp 68 Celsius
Total Mash Volume 17.75 Liters
PreBoil Wort 15.50 Liters
PostBoil Wort 12.00 Liters
Into Fermenter 10.00 Liters

MTB: When I have more time, I'll try to study beersmith...

Opinions? what would you change?

 

[Hez]

I've read it's better to steep the roasted barley for 20' at 66º and remove it during the mash! add it to the recipe! jeje

 

[MHB]

"Conversion from Goldings to Chinhook":

18.92l batch size -> 63.78g goldings
...cross multiplication...
10l batch size -> 33.65g goldings
...so far so good...
goldings 5% alpha
chinhook 11.8% alpha
...inverse proportion...
11.8/5=2.36
33.65/2.36 = 14.25g of Chinhook! jejeje

Try C1V1=C2V2, or in English Mass Hop 1 X Alpha = Mass Hop 2 X Alpha
or for your 10L batch example
33.65g*5% = Xg*11.8% > (33.65*5)/11.8 = Xg = 14.25g
So yo, given the option I think I would use Goldings in preference to Chinook, but its a 60minute addition so probably not going to make a huge difference.

The "classic" Dry Irish Stout recipe is 80% Pale Malt, 10% Roast Barley and 10% Flaked Barley. There is quite a bit of variety with Flake and Roast up to 20%, down to 10% and %5 respectively.
Baking Powder? I suspect that should be Baking Soda, or Sodium Bicarbonate, Baking Powder contains Sodium Carbonate but not exclusively. Might be one of those translation from US to English things, like Molasses, how sure are you we mean the same thing.
You have asked a very open ended question about water chemistry, not having a couple of days spare to explain it all to you, it might be a good idea to go and do some reading, I would try Braukaiser and Brewing Water knowledge base, both worth the time.
Some of your comments on the water sources in Sydney are a little questionable, I think most of the water comes from surface catchments up near the mountains and Silicone isn't really in play.
Grain Absorption 0,375525 l/kg of grain. Really I would be expecting a little more, closer to 0.8-9L/kg
Personally W1084 is a favourite.
Mark

 

[Hez]

Try C1V1=C2V2, or in English Mass Hop 1 X Alpha = Mass Hop 2 X Alpha
or for your 10L batch example
33.65g*5% = Xg*11.8% > (33.65*5)/11.8 = Xg = 14.25g
So yo, given the option I think I would use Goldings in preference to Chinook, but its a 60minute addition so probably not going to make a huge difference.

The "classic" Dry Irish Stout recipe is 80% Pale Malt, 10% Roast Barley and 10% Flaked Barley. There is quite a bit of variety with Flake and Roast up to 20%, down to 10% and %5 respectively.
Baking Powder? I suspect that should be Baking Soda, or Sodium Bicarbonate, Baking Powder contains Sodium Carbonate but not exclusively. Might be one of those translation from US to English things, like Molasses, how sure are you we mean the same thing.
You have asked a very open ended question about water chemistry, not having a couple of days spare to explain it all to you, it might be a good idea to go and do some reading, I would try Braukaiser and Brewing Water knowledge base, both worth the time.
Some of your comments on the water sources in Sydney are a little questionable, I think most of the water comes from surface catchments up near the mountains and Silicone isn't really in play.
Grain Absorption 0,375525 l/kg of grain. Really I would be expecting a little more, closer to 0.8-9L/kg
Personally W1084 is a favourite.
Mark

Your formula is exactly the same! jejeje


mmmm what mix of grain would you recommend then?
These are the grains for the other two recipes (adapted to 10l batch):

Generic Dry Irish Stout
1200g pale
480g flake
240g roasted
1920g TOTAL

Guiness Clone 4
1274g Pale Malt (2 Row) UK (3.0 SRM)
400g Barley, Flaked (1.7 SRM)
100g Black Roasted Barley - GR620 (500.0 SRM)
100g Chocolate Malt - GR600 (450.0 SRM)
38g Acid Malt (3.0 SRM)
25g Black (Patent) Malt - GR610 (560.0 SRM)
1937gTOTAL

They have 25% and 20% of flaked barley and 12.5% and 13.5% of "specialty grains", which doesn't match the tipical recomendation of a generic dry irish stout...

I want to make something simpler than the second one but pointing on that direction. Well, I will ask Dave what grains does he have ...

I believe on my first thought I calculated too much grain... in total it should be just under or around 2000g



About mashing... do you recommend mashing everything together of do the roasted stuff before, then remove it and do the mash with the pale malt and the flaked barley?

Yes, i was wondering about the grain absorption, it was perfect for the last two beers i made (sierra nevada pale ale) , but with the barley flakes i guess it will be much higher. Thanks!

About the water... yes, I guess I have to study more... do you use something for it or do you use regular tap water without extra chemical stuff?

 

[Hez]

I asked Dave (https://daveshomebrew.com.au/, North Sydney) and he told me there's no point on doing a 90' mash or mash the roasted barley separated to the rest but it's better to boil 90' instead of 60'.
He also told me he has all the grains needed and he can prepare the mix for me! Nice!

I've taken into account your recommendations, MHB and I've adapted my recipe. I've also ditched the idea of the baking powder/soda...
Somebody told me: "if the tap water is good enough to drink it's good enough to make beer". I'll keep it simple...
As I've already told, my intention is to make a good beer to my taste, not a perfect clone of anything, let alone Guiness :S
Even more, using Chinhook instead of Goldings! Big sacrilege! jejeje


DRY IRISH STOUT (BIAB)

GRAIN (1937gTOTAL):
1274g Pale Malt (2 Row) UK (3.0 SRM)
400g Barley, Flaked (1.7 SRM)
100g Black Roasted Barley - GR620 (500.0 SRM)
100g Chocolate Malt - GR600 (450.0 SRM)
38g Acid Malt (3.0 SRM)
25g Black (Patent) Malt - GR610 (560.0 SRM)

MASH (70'):
strike temp 68º
60' mash 67.7º
10' mash out 75.5º
sparge 75.5º

BOIL (90')
60' Chinhook 11.8% 14.25g
10' 1/2 tablet Deltafloc

YEAST:
Irish Ale: Wyeast Labs #1084 (preferably) or White Labs #WLP004

WATER ADDITIONS (10l batch on a 15l pot):
17.80l TOTAL WATER
11.80l mash water
02.50l sparge
01.50l boiling water 60' after boil starts
02.00l cold water while chilling

On http://www.biabcalculator.com/
Grain Bill 1937 g
Grain Temp 20º
Batch Size 10 l
Mash Temp 67,7º
Boil Time 90'
Trub 1l
BoilOff Rate 3,5 l/hour
Grain Absorption 0,8 l/kg of grain

Total Water Needed 17.80 Liters
Strike Water Temp 68 Celsius
Total Mash Volume 19.09 Liters
PreBoil Wort 16.25 Liters (-3.5l additional water = 12.75l)
PostBoil Wort 11.00 Liters (-2l additional water = 9l)
Into Fermenter 10.00 Liters (+1l turb I'm not going to filter anyway = 11l)

According to the recipe:
Est OG: 1.039 (9.7° P)
Est FG: 1.010 SG (2.7° P)
ABV: 3.7%

 

[MHB]

Dave is a good guy, looks like the advice he has given you is pretty much on the money.
I see you have sorted out your "water absorbed by the grain" and if you wanted to do a bit of water chemistry, you might consider a bit of Chalk. I'm not 100% sure you will need the Acidulated Malt as the dark malts are fairly acidic (wont hurt) but might be a bit lower pH than your anticipating.
Are you from South America by any chance? the jejeje - there or Spain.
Mark

 

[Hez]

Dave is a good guy, looks like the advice he has given you is pretty much on the money.
I see you have sorted out your "water absorbed by the grain" and if you wanted to do a bit of water chemistry, you might consider a bit of Chalk. I'm not 100% sure you will need the Acidulated Malt as the dark malts are fairly acidic (wont hurt) but might be a bit lower pH than your anticipating.
Are you from South America by any chance? the jejeje - there or Spain.
Mark

Yes, Dave's advice is god's word for me! when it comes to brewing beer at least jejeje
I'm a rookie on this, I take any advice anyway.

About the grain... I decided to follow the recipe (the first one) , it's enough experimentation with the hops.

Do I have an accent even in writing?!? Yes, I'm from Madrid, Spain. My company sent me here for a two year project. I'm a software engineer and if I tell you what I'm here for you will hate me [emoji14]
I love cycling and woodworking but in here I can't always go riding and I can't make stuff from wood so I decided to learn something new: pottery and brewing beer! Jejeje
When I go back to Spain I'm going to set up a home brewery into my workshop...

Something I will never understand about Australian cycling aficionados is .. coffee after a ride?!? Come on! It's beer ! That's the point on suffering on the bike. And beer is the best electrolyte drink.

This weekend I can't brew so I'll tell you next week how it goes!

Thank you very much.
Cheers!

 

[manticle]

Chinook is not a neutral bittering hop.

Nothing wrong with using it in a stout but you can expect some pine resin character to carry over.

The idea that all hops become one when boiled for 60 mins is ludicrous.

Also not quite true that potable automatically equals great for brewing but Sydney water is pretty good. A calcium boost is often a good thing - cal chloride would be my choice but read about why and how first.

Never heard of removing the roast later - my inclination and practise is to add the roast later (again a water chem thing) but keep it simple for your first, tweak later if you want improvements.

 

[Hez]

Chinook is not a neutral bittering hop.

Nothing wrong with using it in a stout but you can expect some pine resin character to carry over.

The idea that all hops become one when boiled for 60 mins is ludicrous.

Also not quite true that potable automatically equals great for brewing but Sydney water is pretty good. A calcium boost is often a good thing - cal chloride would be my choice but read about why and how first.

Never heard of removing the roast later - my inclination and practise is to add the roast later (again a water chem thing) but keep it simple for your first, tweak later if you want improvements.

I love pine! [emoji14]

Mmmmm definitely I will look into the water chemistry a little...

Thank you

I'm learning a lot

 

[manticle]

First thing I would look at with water is removing chlorine

 

[Hez]

First thing I would look at with water is removing chlorine

hmmmmmm do you recommend using a carbon filter for the water? I mean... i thought chlorine just evaporates while boiling and we are boiling the wort for at least an hour in every brewing recipe!

 

[Jack of all biers]

Yes a carbon filter will do it. Camden tablets or ascorbic acid (vit c) will also remove chlorine and chloramine. It should be removed/neutralized prior to mashing or it can bond to wort compounds and later come out in your beers as off flavours (band aid or plastic flavours) caused by chlorophenols. Use the search function for chlorine removal and you'll find plenty of info.

 

[manticle]

Depends where you are and whether your water is chlorinated or treated with chloramines.

As Jack says, you want to knock out chlorine prior to mashing. If your water is simply chlorinated, then heating to strike temp is often enough in my experience as it's pretty volatile above about 20 deg. Chloramines require a world of hardcore boiling and are much more stubborn so campden or filters are an excellent idea in that case (and won't hurt either way).

 

[Hez]

Yesterday I went crazy and I started to brew the stout at 18:00 (english dinner time) ... I finished doing everything at 00:15 (spanish dinner time ).

I don't know what I was thinking, but I didn't calculate the initial water properly. When I finished doing the 2.5l sparge I ended up with 16.25l, measured with the ruler (up to 5l, in my pot it is 0.7cm height per liter). That's when I realized it's a 20l pot and not a 15l as it said on the label! Good one!

Everything went pretty smooth but I decided to add 1l more to the boil eventually...
I ended up with barely 10l into the fermenter, so I think the boil off rate is closer to 4.5l/h... But I calculated 1l of trub. I don't know why, but this time I had a lot less trub, maybe it was the kind/veriety of grain or the small amount of hops...
I will end up with 9-9.5l of beer. Better than last time but still not perfect.

The OG was 1.039, spot on the original recipe! I drunk the hydrometer wort again and it was bitter and sweet, but not as sweet at my last one (sierra nevada pale ale style with a ton of hops and 6.5%ABV)

I did a big mistake: ...it was late...my girlfriend was angry... I forgot to shake the fermenter for "the rudimentary oxygenation" ¬¬
I don't know if I should be very worried because I used the whole package of yeast that's meant for 19l and Dave told me this yeast is a beast! (White Labs WLP004) What do you think? :S

Here I am asking about chemistry while making pretty basic mistakes...

Well , let's see how it goes next Sunday when I bottle it.

 

[Hermies]

Yesterday I went crazy and I started to brew the stout at 18:00 (english dinner time) ... I finished doing everything at 00:15 (spanish dinner time ).

I don't know what I was thinking, but I didn't calculate the initial water properly. When I finished doing the 2.5l sparge I ended up with 16.25l, measured with the ruler (up to 5l, in my pot it is 0.7cm height per liter). That's when I realized it's a 20l pot and not a 15l as it said on the label! Good one!

Everything went pretty smooth but I decided to add 1l more to the boil eventually...
I ended up with barely 10l into the fermenter, so I think the boil off rate is closer to 4.5l/h... But I calculated 1l of trub. I don't know why, but this time I had a lot less trub, maybe it was the kind/veriety of grain or the small amount of hops...
I will end up with 9-9.5l of beer. Better than last time but still not perfect.

The OG was 1.039, spot on the original recipe! I drunk the hydrometer wort again and it was bitter and sweet, but not as sweet at my last one (sierra nevada pale ale style with a ton of hops and 6.5%ABV)

I did a big mistake: ...it was late...my girlfriend was angry... I forgot to shake the fermenter for "the rudimentary oxygenation" ¬¬
I don't know if I should be very worried because I used the whole package of yeast that's meant for 19l and Dave told me this yeast is a beast! (White Labs WLP004) What do you think? :S

Here I am asking about chemistry while making pretty basic mistakes...

Well , let's see how it goes next Sunday when I bottle it.

Don't panic it'll be a good beer let it do its thing and then bottle .

 

[Hez]

Yesterday I bottled it.
The FG was 1010-1010.5 but on saturday I measured and It was exactly the same, so...

I tasted the beer from the hydrometer and tasted ok, not too bitter.

I finally got 25 (330ml bottles) clean and one with trub, not bad...

In two weeks I'll post a picture and opinions.

What next? Weissebier? Belgian ? What would you do in three weeks from now? Having in mind Sydney's temperature at that time...

 

[Jack of all biers]

Well done. I'd do a weissbier, but that's me. What would you brew.

 

[Hez]

Well done. I'd do a weissbier, but that's me. What would you brew.

That was my first option! I'll write a New post after having studied a little about weissbier... advice is always welcome, by the way.

One thing I learnt about weissbier in Munich is the combination of it with pretzels is... Explosive! German people are very polite until one farts first... Jejeje good thing biergartens are open air. Prost!

 

[Hez]

Here it is!

It ended up being very dark.. pitch black!
The foam is thick when you pour it but disappears fast.
I didn't get any pine flavour. The only weird thing I get is a little liquorice aroma when the glass is half way. Could it be the anaerobic fermentation? (I forgot to shake the fermenter).
The only thing is I would like a little more body... I mean it's not watery but I'd like more bite.
The bitterness it's right, similar to the Guinness

Do you think liquorice could be an off flavor? I've reviewed the off flavour list and I didn't find it..
I find it nice, but I'm not sure it should be present in this beer.
Could it be the aeration? Chloramine? Or just that I poured a little turb?
It's subtle but it's there...

I'd like some expert to try it and tell me what he/she thinks! Jeje