Dray Horses .draught Horses ?

[tommy cooper]

well it is a question i see alot here so i have done some googling around and found some info on this subject and wording.
i will add to it as i find more but there seems to be some conflicting arguments on the subject about the word "draught" so here is the first installment i hope you enjoy the read and the linx .

www.hooknortonbrewery.co.uk/public_visitors/Shire_horse_dray_horse.html.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft_(horse)
beeradvocate.com/news/stories_read/523/
so from what i have read, before the invention of the beer engine it was called cask ale which was cellared and pourered into serving jugs .but after the invention of the beer engine or hand pump ,where as the beer was drawn from the cask only then dose there seem to be a reference to calling it draft ale or draught.
okay there are litrally thousands of references to Joseph Bramah so finding the correct one where it mentions about puling beer up from the cellar using the beer engine is quite an effort in it self .but hence the word pull,pulling or moving =(haul) it is the same as the anglo saxon word draught or draft it is how ever a very open and complicated language (english) so you now now that draught or draft has a proven relationship to pulling or moving in its correct meaning .
a dray is a 2m x2m cart and it is also refered to in australian history within the cobb and co museam. the correct terminology is a dray horse or shire horse. the word draught horse is in fact used more commonly in australia from what serching i have done.
well its all anglosaxon to me.

here endeth the lesson and i hope you enjoyed the read as much as i enjoyed the research.

tc :beer:

 

[kook]

Quite often I see the question raised here about the meaning of draught beer. I have performed some research using Google and found further information on the subject and history of the word.

As I find more information I will amend this, however there seems to be conflicting arguments regarding the meaning of the word "draught". Below is the first instalment, I hope you enjoy the material and links.

http://www.hooknortonbrewery.co.uk/public_...dray_horse.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft_(horse)
http://beeradvocate.com/news/stories_read/523/

From what I have read, prior to the invention of the beer engine draught beer was referred to as cask ale. This was cellared and poured into serving jugs. Only after the invention of the beer engine (also known as hand pump) does there seem to be a reference to "draught" or "draft" ale.

There are literally thousands of references to Joseph Bramah (inventor of the beer engine), so finding the correct information is quite an effort in itself. When people referred to pulling (moving or hauling) the beer from the cellar, they may have also used the Anglo-Saxon word "draught" or "draft". As English is a very open and complicated language, there may have been a relationship between these words in the past.

Another example is the use of the word "draught" or "draft" with relation to the pulling of a cart with horses. A dray is a 2m x 2m cart which has been referred to in Australian history within the Cobb and Co museum. Traditionally, a dray was pulled by a "dray", "draught" or "draft" horse.

Cheers for an interesting read

 

[Pumpy]

I took this picture out the window at the Hook Norton Brewery of the Dray horse in the field if you look carefully you can see it

 

[InCider]

Old blighty. Ahh those were the drays...

:blink:
InCider.

I took this picture out the window at the Hook Norton Brewery of the Dray horse in the field if you look carefully you can see it

 

[InCider]

I don't want to nag until I'm blue in the face or go hoarse, or aggravate the 'nay' sayers, but I was speaking to this horses hoof the other day and he was lagging behind... He was at the tail end, and saddled with the responsibility of being the Mayor. He bit headlong into the job, but still blinkered at the daunting task, seeing as it was Long Bay.

 

[Screwtop]

Really didn't want to buy into this, BUT. A draft was also a referral to depth or lay, such as the draft of a ship. The depth of the furrow cut into earth when plowing was referred to as the draft. Large strong horses such as clydesdales were used for pulling the plough, they were known as drafting, draught or draft horses. Lighter breeds were used for pulling carts and drays and were known as dray horses.

 

[tommy cooper]

Really didn't want to buy into this, BUT. A draft was also a referral to depth or lay, such as the draft of a ship. The depth of the furrow cut into earth when plowing was referred to as the draft. Large strong horses such as clydesdales were used for pulling the plough, they were known as drafting, draught or draft horses. Lighter breeds were used for pulling carts and drays and were known as dray horses.

well screwy you seem to know more about it then
so the anglosaxson word meaning to pull or haul eg draft.draught is a load of shite then ?
will some one tell those schollors in the UK they got it all wronge and that the aussies know MORE ABOUT ANGLOSAXON language the the anglosaxons themselves
i guess this is why i left this forum. h34r:


i,ll get my coat

 

[Screwtop]

well screwy you seem to know more about it then
so the anglosaxson word meaning to pull or haul eg draft.draught is a load of shite then ?
will some one tell those schollors in the UK they got it all wronge and that the aussies know MORE ABOUT ANGLOSAXON language the the anglosaxons themselves
i guess this is why i left this forum. h34r:
i,ll get my coat

A'm noo a sassonach, you'll get no argument here, but these Irish Draught Horse breeders might be willing to argue the point Irish Draught Horse Society

There's a few risin to the baits today

 

[paul]

I have to agree with Screwtop about draught being depth.

On a tractor have a draught control that you can adjust. This adjusts how far the three point linkage on the back lowers which effects how deep the implements that is attached to it lowers.

 

[tommy cooper]

no one is biting screwy and i am not going to dissagree with the irish draught horse soc either .the whole point of this was to point out the connection between draft horses and beer not the dept of holes dug buy a plough man and the draft in boats as this this would not be any relation to beer .
there are many and varied meanings in the english language as i stated in the first post . i was pointing out only that beer in casks was called cask ale and then only referred to as draft after the implication of the beer engine.

my point being that the discussion was on the topic of beer not farming or boat building .there are plenty of forums on boat building or farming if you wish to discuss those practises there .

i do however agree that your comments are valid to the point of different meanings in the english langauge and the point has been noted.
but the original post as stated was about beer. i could have even put more references to the same meanings as you but then that would have been wayward off the track and made the whole thing confusing for all.
it just seemed the composition of the post was a tone of" im right! your wronge! you don,t what your on about! "was more the point. i may be wrong here but thats how it came across . unfortunatly there are a few on this site who seem to do this alot . knock others, post one liners, or just make fun of and even $hit Stir. which IMO is not what the site is about .i am not saying you are one of these as we are all are guilty of a shit stir.

it just seems alot of fellas on here do it and this is why i left the forum as a contributor and joined another forums where for not of a better word "ockkerisium"and piss taking is not present or tollerated.from all of the overseas forums i am with and a member AHB is a great place but the shit stirers are killing the site in leaps and bounds.

its one thing to joke but piss taking isn't funney IMO. and that usually is in the form of one line comments or going off topic just for the hell of it at the expence of a laugh.

not saying at all that you are like this i am just pointing out that there are people on public forums doing this kind of thing and it is dissapointing non the less.

kind regards tc

 

[Steve]

Where I come from they're called Shire Horses

 

[Guest Lurker]

I thought TC had left the building?

 

[tommy cooper]

hi steve your on the money there they are called shire horses and there were many teams of draft horses to within the shirehorses stables to share the working loads of the many a job they did.

GL yes tc left the building but is at the front door from time to time to say hello to a few mates at "smoke O"

or to sometimes to check whats happening in the AHB world you could call it a cameo LOL :blink:

tc :beer:

 

[user 384]

I must be thick becuase I've missed the connections. The logic seems to be at one stage beer was served straight from the cask and hence was called cask ale. Then beer engines were introduced and it became known as draft or draught ale. This is because beer was pulled up from the cellar and supposedly the Anglo-Saxon word for pull is draft or draught. Here is where I get confused because the reference given for the Anglo-Saxon word for pull says it's dragan meaning to draw or haul. So why isn't it called dragan ale if it's because of the connection to the Anglo-Saxon word?

All I can conclude from the information presented is that an old Anglo-Saxon word for draw or haul was dragan and it appears to have changed over time to draft or draught which was then applied to large horses that pulled carts. Even this is not very well explained in the Wikipedia article and there is no real evidence given for it.

the correct terminology is a dray horse or shire horse. the word draught horse is in fact used more commonly in australia from what serching i have done.

And as far as the correct terminology being dray or shire horse, I better give Mum a call and tell her for the past 60 odd years she's being using the wrong word. Growing up on a Teesdale farm her father kept Clydesdales and when they moved off the farm she retained the brasses they would adorn the horses with at shows. I remember Mum used to hang the brasses on the kitchen wall. Funny thing is she always referred to the horses as draft horses. She must have stopped using the word dray when we immigrated .

Cheers
MAH

 

[Steve]

the gypos round where I grew up used to race them....will never forget seeing 5 - 6 year olds head down, arse up on top of these bloody gigantic horses. It was fun to watch until they told ya to feck off! Also the Rag n Bone man used to come down the back lane of our house using one to pull his cart of junk....sorry off topic....just reminiscing. And yes MAH hanging their brasses is (or used to be) very common round my neck of the woods too.

Cheers
Steve

 

[KoNG]

[insert sarcasm] This thread has done so much to clear things up for me..! I'm heading home to crack a cold can of tooheys draught...

 

[tommy cooper]

ha ha ha ha

well as i said they meaning of the english language is so complicated no wonder forign speaking countries get confused.

i think it all has stemmed from hundreds of years of conquest buy many other countries .

at the end of the day what we have today is a better understanding and a lot of interpetations that in one way or another are all correct.

tc :beer:

 

[Screwtop]

at the end of the day what we have today is a better understanding and a lot of interpetations that in one way or another are all correct.

tc :beer:

You giving in TC?? :lol:

Will have to stir things up again, now what about the difference between a cask and a barrel. A cask has the bung in the side and a barrel has the bung/spiggot in the end, right. Is that spiggot or tap? maybe another argument!