Do Yourself A Favour Brew A Real Beer A German Pilsner !

[Fourstar]

I have no problem with water adjustment, most of my beers have water adjustments made, but i dont criticise other people's water adjustments.

At what point did i criticise? I actually asked what it did for the flavour profile! Point it out to me and i'll shutup.

 

[manticle]

To move slightly in a left direction when is someone going to contribute an article to the wiki section on decoction mashing and another on water additions?

 

[mje1980]

At what point did i criticise? I actually asked what it did for the flavour profile! Point it out to me and i'll shutup.

Whaaa? Is that correct? Thats like 130ppm Ca and 330ppm SO4. Thats huuuuuuge!

Either way it would work at drying the arse out of a pilsner! The highest ive gone from memory was 250ppm of SO4 in my case swap AIPA and it was commented on being really dry. How the palate on it pumpy?

I know that, thats what i calculated it for. 1st off the figures where double that as i only calculated for 20-23L and i was double

I wonder if that addition is correct. Considering i never really jump above 5g for 23L of beer with Gypsum or a max of 7g~Ca for a 23L batch.

 

[manticle]

Mate I see your point but I'm fairly certain fourstar didn't mean it in an "oh my god your beer's gonna be so shit now you loser why did you do that crap brewer" kind of a way.

 

[Fourstar]

I guess you dont understand what criticisim means. All of that noted as 'criticisim' where observations. Criticisim would be " Pumpy, you made the wrong decision by adding 21g of gypsum and making your SO4 content >300ppm." When infact that is not the case, 300ppm of SO4 is still a safe zone, just high.

You obviously had no idea...

Can we bring this topic back on track? Hopefully the mods have the sense to remobe all of this babble.

 

[Ecosse]

Whaaa? Is that correct? Thats like 130ppm Ca and 330ppm SO4. Thats huuuuuuge!

Either way it would work at drying the arse out of a pilsner! The highest ive gone from memory was 250ppm of SO4 in my case swap AIPA and it was commented on being really dry. How the palate on it pumpy?

I know that, thats what i calculated it for. 1st off the figures where double that as i only calculated for 20-23L and i was double

I wonder if that addition is correct. Considering i never really jump above 5g for 23L of beer with Gypsum or a max of 7g~Ca for a 23L batch.

Can't imagine that Pumpy survived that withering criticism. The cheek of Fourstar, actually asking how the beer tasted and offering an opinion

 

[mckenry]

I guess you dont understand what criticisim means. All of that noted as 'criticisim' where observations. Criticisim would be " Pumpy, you made the wrong decision by adding 21g of gypsum and making your SO4 content >300ppm." When infact that is not the case, 300ppm of SO4 is still a safe zone, just high.

You obviously had no idea...

Can we bring this topic back on track? Hopefully the mods have the sense to remobe all of this babble.

I see what you mean Fourstar. I can also see the other side. A lot of your posts come across as a little bit 'I know better than you' and 'I know more than you' instead of 'here's some help'.
It's just your writing style and enthusiasm that is getting to some.
Hope this helps.
mckenry

 

[warrenlw63]

I think in defence of mje he's probably a little cynical of people "theorising" over the water profile of another city that certain posters have not utilised in actual practice.

And fourstar for the record I think that quoting "babble" by yourself I find really laughable. Asking the mods to remove it just smacks of arrogance.

Just for the record I've been doing AG beers for 12 years and claim to know very little about water chemistry so I won't try and post out of my depth other than to say you can make perfectly good lagers without altering it (that I can say in practice). Not to say they can't be better without it I just don't think it's necessary is all.

However if you can safely claim you know what you're doing good luck to you.

Warren -

 

[Fourstar]

A lot of your posts come across as a little bit 'I know better than you' and 'I know more than you' instead of 'here's some help'.
It's just your writing style and enthusiasm that is getting to some.

I can understand that, especially when you have answered the same question X amount of times, responses get shorter and less detailed as you go on. I usually like to make my answers blunt and to the point because of it, no need to ramble on for paragraphs on end. Saying that i could always not comment at all, but what would be the point of posting on here. But yes i can see your side of view (and probabaly everyone elses) Heck, SWMBO has even said to me 'wow that looks rough' when im correcting someones comments, when i look at it it seems rather mild. I guess it shows why im a Network Engineer and not a Author. Time to find a cave i think.

Oh, Warren. I understand where mje is coming from RE experience with the water but the water profile i was woriking it off, all minerals where less than <5ppm so i think the theorising i was doing was substansiated. Then again people dont mind firing off comments when they are unsubstansiated so maybe i shoudlnt have bothered to go to the trouble of using a nomograph and actually calculating these figures to confirm my assumptions.

Heck, you're happy to pull me up and ask for an explanation when i dont. Then again ive only been brewing 6 out of your 12 years so i could potentially know only 1/2 of what you do.

Then again im probabaly reading all of the wrong books and online references. Back to my Coopers Can and Brewcraft Manual.

*coasts his beer on "designing great beers". :lol:


So out of all of this. Pumpy, whats the flavour/mouthfeel like with the Ca and SO4 content? Drying? Are the hops ok? Still havn't got an answer to wether or not its ok to push the SO4 figures this high with a Pilsner yet.

Cheers

 

[mje1980]

I can understand that, especially , responses get shorter and less detailed as you go on. I usually like to make my answers blunt and to the point because of it, no need to ramble on for paragraphs on end. Saying that i could always not comment at all, but what would be the point of posting on here. But yes i can see your side of view (and probabaly everyone elses) Heck, SWMBO has even said to me 'wow that looks rough' when im correcting someones comments, when i look at it it seems rather mild. I guess it shows why im a Network Engineer and not a Author. Time to find a cave i think.

Oh, Warren. I understand where mje is coming from RE experience with the water but the water profile i was woriking it off, all minerals where less than <5ppm so i think the theorising i was doing was substansiated. Then again people dont mind firing off comments when they are unsubstansiated so maybe i shoudlnt have bothered to go to the trouble of using a nomograph and actually calculating these figures to confirm my assumptions.

Heck, you're happy to pull me up and ask for an explanation when i dont. Then again ive only been brewing 6 out of your 12 years so i could potentially know only 1/2 of what you do.

Then again im probabaly reading all of the wrong books and online references. Back to my Coopers Can and Brewcraft Manual.

*coasts his beer on "designing great beers". :lol:


So out of all of this. Pumpy, whats the flavour/mouthfeel like with the Ca and SO4 content? Drying? Are the hops ok? Still havn't got an answer to wether or not its ok to push the SO4 figures this high with a Pilsner yet.

Cheers

when you have answered the same question X amount of times

He didn't ask for an evaluation of his water treatment. He's obviously happy with how its going.

when im correcting someones comments

Why did they need "correcting"?. Obviously they were wrong according to you.

why im a Network Engineer and not a Author

I have no idea what this has to do with this thread, or beer in general.




Nest time i'll just flick by your post. Maybe it is just your writing style.

Pumpy, sorry for ruining your thread, i'll let fourstar have the last word.

 

[Fourstar]

when you have answered the same question X amount of times
He didn't ask for an evaluation of his water treatment. He's obviously happy with how its going.
- No he didnt and its quite obvious he is happy with the results! I was asking as i was interested in what a high SO4 content does to a German pilsner.

when im correcting someones comments
Why did they need "correcting"?. Obviously they were wrong according to you.
- Had nothing todo with this thread. Obviously you just 'flicked by' my post as this was related to my writing style in response to mckenrys comments. Oh by the way, the only time i correct somone is when they are factually wrong, not my opinion that they are wrong. After all your opinion means nothing if it has no backbone to it. Nothing worse than people misleading the group with wrong information. Im not the only one that does this. Anyone thats a subject matter expert or knows the ins and outs about a topic chimes in when required. Thats all i do.

why im a Network Engineer and not a Author
I have no idea what this has to do with this thread, or beer in general.
-Another swing and a miss. It has nothing todo with this thread, a response to mckenry regarding my writing style. Did you miss that quote at the top of the post?

Nest time i'll just flick by your post. Maybe it is just your writing style.
-Thats up to you, tis a shame that breaking down a recipce into the science of it is considered arrogant and being a 'know all'. All i wanted to gain was knowledge for the benifits behind such a thing. Its really annoying that with homebrewing its considered 'the norm' to "brew beer, ask questions later". I prefer to know the science of something in detail before i go ahead and do it, such as water modification or decoction mashing. Do you find it intimidating that i would like to know the reasons behind doing something that you or somone else may not know the answer to?

Pumpy, sorry for ruining your thread, i'll let fourstar have the last word.
-My apologies Pumpy, its obvious im the one who started all of this mess. Don't take any of this to heart mate, it was not intended that way. I would still like to know what it does for the dryness though

 

[Trough Lolly]

Ahhh I feel I am amongst freinds .

Weasle Estate Brewery they say there is only two types of Pilsner yeast ,a German one and a Budvar one .

Jamil's Pilsner( Revised 2 )


German Pilsner (Pils)


Type: All Grain
Date: 14/08/2009
Batch Size: 40.00 L
Brewer: Pumpy
Boil Size: 47.96 L Asst Brewer: Pumpy
Boil Time: 60 min Equipment: My Equipment 40
Taste Rating(out of 50): 35.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 85.00
Taste Notes:

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
7.76 kg Weyermann Pilsner (3.9 EBC) Grain 100.00 %
62.00 gm Pearle [8.00 %] (60 min) Hops 29.8 IBU
35.00 gm Hallertauer [2.30 %] (15 min) Hops 2.4 IBU
25.00 gm Hallertauer [2.30 %] (1 min) Hops 0.1 IBU
1.00 tsp Koppafloc (Boil 10.0 min) Misc
2.12 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Primary 3.0 days) Misc
21.13 gm Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs Pilsner Lager (White Labs #WLP800) Yeast-Lager



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.052 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.010 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.013 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.005 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.12 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 0.65 %
Bitterness: 32.3 IBU Calories: 90 cal/l
Est Color: 6.5 EBC Color: Color


Mash Profile

Mash Name: Temperature Mash, 2 Step, Light Body Total Grain Weight: 7.76 kg
Sparge Water: 36.49 L Grain Temperature: 22.2 C
Sparge Temperature: 75.6 C TunTemperature: 22.2 C
Adjust Temp for Equipment: FALSE Mash PH: 5.4 PH

Temperature Mash, 2 Step, Light Body Step Time Name Description Step Temp
30 min Protein Rest Add 20.24 L of water at 54.0 C 50.0 C
75 min Saccharification Heat to 65.6 C over 15 min 65.6 C
10 min Mash Out Heat to 75.6 C over 10 min 75.6 C

G'day all,
Nice recipe Pumpy. Jeez, I thought you would have been a "lager lout" from way back!
If pale lagers are in your sights, I'll see if I can dust off my old and gold Dortmunder recipe "Yabba Dabba Dortmunder".

It's been a while since I lasted visited AHB so I'll keep my head down for the moment re the Water Chemistry discussion!



Cheers,
TL

 

[T.D.]

Just for the record I've been doing AG beers for 12 years and claim to know very little about water chemistry so I won't try and post out of my depth other than to say you can make perfectly good lagers without altering it (that I can say in practice). Not to say they can't be better without it I just don't think it's necessary is all.

I couldn't agree more. I think water chemistry is something that should be tweaked a bit once you are confident you have everything else (things that are more important like the ingredients, brewing method and recipe formulation) sorted out. I think all too often people give things like water chemistry WAAAY too much emphasis. I have made everything from stouts to czech pilsners using unaltered Sydney water and have never been left thinking "dammit, if only I'd added 5g of gypsum" or whatever.

If people want to vigorously debate water chemistry then that's their choice, but I find the whole thing a bit tedious!

 

[mika]

....
If people want to vigorously debate water chemistry then that's their choice, but I find the whole thing a bit tedious!

Then why post ?
It's a bit like posting, 'KnK is a waste of time' in every KnK/Extract thread.

 

[warrenlw63]

Then why post ?
It's a bit like posting, 'KnK is a waste of time' in every KnK/Extract thread.

Why post?

Because it's an opinion (more likely based on experience) from the other side of the fence. Secondly I don't think that pumpy's post ever mentioned water treatment until fourstar made the whole thread all about him.

So in the end his post was of more merit than yours.

Warren -

 

[T.D.]

Then why post ?

I could ask you the same question. At least what I said has a point...

 

[manticle]

How did a thread on German Pilsener turn into an online slap fest?

I'm more interested in the lager making process and the recipes that were described in the first few pages than most of this other nonsense. Discussions on water chemistry are also interesting to people like myself who know nothing about it.

More brewing, less bitching.

 

[brettprevans]

How did a thread on German Pilsener turn into an online slap fest?

a cross over from slapping of lederhosen?

im still waiting on Tony to answer my question on mash temp

 

[Effect]

So were I to do myself a favour and brew a german pilsner...what recipe should I use? I've never ever ever done a lager before, but there is always a first.

I have drunk many a german pilsner (when I was living in germany) but I was only 18 and just drank whatever was available...didn't really give a hoot what it was. The last german pilsner I have had was the Weihenstephan Pilsner. I actually wanted to buy the knappstein reserve lager, as I had had it a week before and had a craving for it. I thought it was fruity and smooth, refreshing and an easy drinker. So I am sitting down with two beers, I crack open the Pilsner and pour it into the glass. The head on this was so lovely, nice tight little bubbles...just amazing. Then onto the knappstein reserve lager...harsh and yucky...a mile away from the pilsner - so I can understand pumpy's 'do yourself a favour and brew a german pilsner' - I really felt that if I were to brew a beer this good, I could die happy

So...how's about a Pilsner recipe... (edit: a recipe that is close to the weihenstephan pilsner if possible)

And fourstar, can you recommend a water profile for me? I'll pm you the adelaide water profile thingo.

Cheers
Phil

 

[Trough Lolly]

I couldn't agree more. I think water chemistry is something that should be tweaked a bit once you are confident you have everything else (things that are more important like the ingredients, brewing method and recipe formulation) sorted out. I think all too often people give things like water chemistry WAAAY too much emphasis. I have made everything from stouts to czech pilsners using unaltered Sydney water and have never been left thinking "dammit, if only I'd added 5g of gypsum" or whatever.

If people want to vigorously debate water chemistry then that's their choice, but I find the whole thing a bit tedious!

I can't disagree with your logic, but perhaps there's another issue that's been overlooked regarding water chemistry...

Water chemistry, as boring or exciting as you wish to make it, is more about trying to emulate all of the conditions that go into making truly unique beers. We can't simply grab 10 gallons of Dublin water and do up a Guinness clone - but if we want to get that unique flavour profile of the water (as well as the hops, grain and yeast) we can do something to our home water and make some adjustments to the mineral profile.

Sure, you can make outstanding stouts without pfaffing around with water chemistry, but sometimes I do like to toss in some chalk or gypsum if I really want to get a touch closer to the real thing when I want to make a dortmunder or special bitter....its not too dissimilar in logic to why some extract brewers decide to switch to all grain - but it's certainly not compulsory!

Cheers,
TL