Diacetyl In Your Beer

[Voosher]

I have recently subjected fellow brewers and beer drinkers to a beer with strong diacetyl. Granted it was probably a little stronger ( :excl: ) than "ideal" and I will be taking further steps to reduce it in future but the range of opinions I have found quite surprising as indicated by the questions in the poll above.
I'd love to hear more opinions, er... especially from fellow participants in the SA Christmas Case.

 

[pint of lager]

The online magazine Brewing Techniques has an article on diacetyl. I don't have the specific link, but have a browse through their index, it is not hard to find.

Link.

 

[Steve]

I dont like it. If I wanted to taste butterscotch i'd buy a bag of worthers. I want to taste the malt n hops n yeast.
Cheers
Steve

 

[Kai]

A little is ok depending on the beer, a lot is not. I don't mind some faint caramel notes and a tiny bit of that buttery slickness, but only a little bit. I'm sure by xmas yours will have toned down a fair bit.

 

[Fingerlickin_B]

I'm not willing to vote yet, as I'm not entirely sure that I know how to detect it :huh:

There were two extract brews recently that had an odd taste that I couldn't explain.

They were in different fermenters, but in the same box together at the same time when fermenting, so both would have been subject to the same temperature variations.

I hated it and one of my mates that tried the beers said they tasted normal for my beer and couldn't pick any difference.

Quite possibly it was Diacetyl and he's one of those people I've read about that cannot detect it.

I wouldn't call this taste "butterscotch"...more like "musk"...is that Diacetyl?

PZ.

 

[THE DRUNK ARAB]

Voosher, what yeast has given you diacetyl?

I have had it a few times, with Wy 1028 and 1056 also with US 56. In the two cases with the Wyeast I had actually bottled the beer and I found that after a month or so in the bottles the diacetyl had disappeared.

C&B
TDA

 

[Asher]

I aim to produce none.... but fall back on the relevent style guide as the reason it's there when it does appear

 

[Voosher]

Voosher, what yeast has given you diacetyl?

I have had it a few times, with Wy 1028 and 1056 also with US 56. In the two cases with the Wyeast I had actually bottled the beer and I found that after a month or so in the bottles the diacetyl had disappeared.

C&B
TDA

'twas the 1187 Ringwood.
It was fermented at 18-19C and not given a thorough diacetyl rest mainly because I had no idea what was required for a rest for ale yeasts. I have since discovered from Wyeast that 72 hrs @ 21C should give sufficient rest for this and most other diacetyl prone ale yeasts (eg 1968 and the 1469 Timothy Taylor has thrown a little during ferment as well.) It should also subside with time - I was told about 6 weeks - but this particular brew had 2 weeks each primary and secondary, 2 weeks conditioning and now at 6 weeks in the bottle it's still more than evident.
The current diacetyl prone brews (another Ringwood and the Timothy Taylor) are getting a thorough rest so I'll see how it goes.

Fingerlickin_B
Brew with the 1187 and I reckon you'll find it.
Having 'discovered' it - and I find it more on the nose than the palate - it's now easy to detect elsewhere as well.

I think this is possibly the actual article to which POL referred.
Diacetyl: Formation, Reduction, and Control
I haven't read it yet but will as soon as poss.

And for what it's worth I voted "Good for a change or a distinctive flavour". I don't mind it but as I said earlier it's not too heavy for me on the palate. Having said that I've made some recipe adjustments this time around to get a better balance.

Cheers.
:beerbang:

 

[nifty]

I'm not sure what it tastes like. I think I'd need someone to specifically say that this beer has diacetyl before I recognized it.

nifty

 

[Voosher]

I think this is possibly the actual article to which POL referred.
Diacetyl: Formation, Reduction, and Control

Interesting article.
Of particular interest - especially with regard to diacetyl prone ale yeasts - are the increased tendency of diacetyl production for high flocculating yeasts into which category both 1187 and 1968 fall; and the role of oxygen in diacetyl production. A heavily and properly oxygenated wort should limit diacetyl production.

 

[Steve]

Fingerlickin and nifty....next time you are at the movies buy a bag of popcorn....then you will know what diacetyl tastes and smells like.
Cheers
Steve

P.S. also for whats its worth, I voted for: If I hold my nose I can just get it down

 

[Fingerlickin_B]

Fingerlickin and nifty....next time you are at the movies buy a bag of popcorn....then you will know what diacetyl tastes and smells like.
Cheers
Steve

P.S. also for whats its worth, I voted for: If I hold my nose I can just get it down

Well, after that one I'm pretty sure it was Diacetyl.

Voted the same as you Steve...it was the closest option I could find to "didn't like it, but still forced myself to drink both kegs" :lol:

PZ.

 

[Steve]

Fingerlickin and nifty....next time you are at the movies buy a bag of popcorn....then you will know what diacetyl tastes and smells like.
Cheers
Steve

P.S. also for whats its worth, I voted for: If I hold my nose I can just get it down

Well, after that one I'm pretty sure it was Diacetyl.

Voted the same as you Steve...it was the closest option I could find to "didn't like it, but still forced myself to drink both kegs" :lol:

PZ.

:lol:

 

[Trev]

Diacetyl can also arise from an infection, pediococcus(sp) as well as technique/yeast. You can rest it and bottle condition it till you're blue in the face and it's still there.

I had the pleasure(?) of serving a butterscotch ale to a group of brewers last year. If I could have distilled it, which of course I wouldn't because that's illegal, and made the nicest butterscotch liqueur

Mind you, I've also made Banana Ale (damn Isoamyl Acetate - a bit too warm fermentation with a Weiss yeast) as well as a couple of Band Aid ales (damn phenolics - gotta watch that sparge temp).

Trev

 

[delboy]

i agree with nifty in post 9 but i do not totally agree with steves comment in post 11 . NO DISRESPECT STEVE but popcorn allways tastes a bit card boardy to me and if my beer had tones of that i would say it was oxidised .but then if you got butter flavoured popcorn the i would say oxidised and may be diacetly .
i have never really come across a diacetle taste in anybeer but then again we all taste things a little differently and i have more than likely drank loads of it and never thought any different because it was a home brewed beer . unless someone put a beer under my chin and said that taste like diacetle is in that beer then i might know it .

can anyone tell me do the major brewers have this problem or is it only us hbrs .

delboy
brp

 

[Voosher]

can anyone tell me do the major brewers have this problem or is it only us hbrs .

delboy
brp

Coopers Pale Ale has been known to have diacetyl around Christmas time when they're pumping it out at near maximum capacity.
That doesn't surprise me. Many have had diacetyl in beers made with recultured Coopers yeast... myself included... now I know what to look for.

There are beers which legitimately show signs of diacetyl - certainly several Brit ales. I wouldn't use them as a definitive guide out here though. I find the quality of British bottled ales is too variable though having said that you'd likely find diacetyl in the Fullers beers (1968 yeast) and I generally think the ESB is of good quality by the bottle out here.

 

[dr K]

Diacetyl, like many other components in beer is produced as part of the fermentation process. Some beers will exhibit more than others and in many beers I believe it is an important part of the flavour balance.
If you are making a lager you will often do a diacetyl rest (?) after fermentaion has pretty much finished by bringing the fermenting chamber up to say 18C, this will invigorate the sleepy old yeast who will feel like a bit of breakfast and as most of the sugars have gone they will happily eat the diacetyl.
Ale yeasts though, tend to produce higher levels of diacetyl full stop so if you package (bottle or keg) too early the yeast may have eaten the bread but not the butter !!!!
Another cause of diacetyl is gravity racking, you will introduce some oxygen and kick off a genuine secondary fermentation with resulting diacetyl.
Bottom line is that diacetyl is not a bad thing, too much is a worry.

K

 

[delboy]

SO IF THIS IS NOT A MAJOR CONCERN to Coopers why do we cringe at the thought? I know that producing the perfect beer is the goal here but that would be near impossable as most of us have different expectations.
I tend to take the art of beer making simply that an art and try not to worry to much about the cloning factors but i rather like to take a style and customise it for me .hey you guys here are a wonderful resorse and this is a great place to learn and i love the site so there is no disrespect here .

keep up the work
DELBOY BRP

 

[Voosher]

SO IF THIS IS NOT A MAJOR CONCERN to Coopers why do we cringe at the thought?

It's not so much that it not a major concern for Coopers... it's more that supply and revenue are BIGGER concerns.
Coopers Pale Ale is better WITHOUT diacetyl.

 

[AngelTearsOnMyTongue]

I just dont know.... I'm really curious though as I have no doubt that some (or all) of my brews must have diacetyl.

I have been curious about Diacetyl ever since I became a member of this site and am still none the wiser. Cant someone just make little taster tubes and circulate them to members?

Maybe a "Lick and taste" card?

Is there a beer that has a signature diacetyl flavour. ie a beer I can go and buy to taste this elusive character?

cheers in confusion

ATOMT