Dark/black Ipa Recipe - Thoughts

[bevdawg]

Hi guys. This is my next planned BIAB brew, a dark/black IPA...

If anyone has any advice on changes that could/should be made, please let me know!

Going for something like the Rare Breed Thorny Goat...

BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Dark IPA
Brewer: Bevan
Asst Brewer:
Style: American IPA
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 23.00 L
Boil Size: 28.53 L
Estimated OG: 1.069 SG
Estimated Color: 33.9 SRM
Estimated IBU: 48.8 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
0.50 kg Treacle [Boil for 1 min] Extract 6.80 %
5.50 kg Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 74.83 %
0.50 kg Wheat Malt, Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 6.80 %
0.35 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L (80.0 SRM) Grain 4.76 %
0.25 kg Carafa I (337.0 SRM) Grain 3.40 %
0.25 kg Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 3.40 %
12.00 gm Galaxy [13.40 %] (Dry Hop 3 days) Hops -
40.00 gm Galaxy [13.40 %] (60 min) Hops 48.8 IBU
38.00 gm Motueka [8.60 %] (Dry Hop 3 days) Hops -
50.00 gm Galaxy [13.40 %] (0 min) Hops -
50.00 gm Motueka [8.60 %] (0 min) Hops -
1 Pkgs American Ale (Wyeast Labs #1056) [Starter Yeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: My Mash
Total Grain Weight: 6.85 kg

 

[Steve@PMF82]

I have not used Galaxy myself, but i find a lot of talk about not using it as a 60 min addition, as its a harsh bitterness.
For an IPA i would be looking at using a more neutral hop for your 60 min addition.

 

[domix]

I'm not too sure about the overall recipe. Sorry can't help you there.
This video mentioned black roasted wheat
Also some other stats listed
Thorny Goat vid

 

[bevdawg]

I thought Galaxy was good for bitterness due to high alpha?

 

[Steve@PMF82]

High Alpha does mean more bitterness, as in more bang for your buck.
But what kind of bitterness you end up with is another thing?

As i said , its just from reading around here a fair bit , that Galaxy can give a harsh/metallic type bitterness when used at the 60min mark.
Unlike hops such as Magnum and Northern Brewer, very smooth bittering hops.

CB , site sponsor has some pretty good descriptions about all the hops they have for sale.

 

[argon]

Galaxy's fine as a bittering addition, especially considering it's AA% and you're using it late in the boil as well.

Looks like you're going for a dark ipa, in that you'll have some roasted flavours coming trough from the choc malt and maybe some dark sweetness from the treacle. Whereas black ipa's originated just to be a dark course version of an ipa without the roast.

As for your recipe, I'd be upping the bitterness to at least 60-70 ibu to balance out your OG. Maybe another addition at 10 mins for another 10 ibu or so. That 0 min addition will add extra bitterness of course but a little more couldn't hurt.

Also make sure you have good size starter and aerate well. You want have a good fermentation and finish relatively dry.
Certainly does look tasty with what you're gong for.

 

[bevdawg]

The Galaxy bittering addition is going in for 60min of the boil, will that be OK argon? I was worried about the IBU's being low also, so I might wack a little more in around the final 10min of the 60min boil. I want this to be hoppy... do you think my hop schedule is enough?

 

[warra48]

To my taste, .25kgCarafa 1 and .25kg Chocolate malts will give you a far too roasty beer, well beyond the IPA style.
Personally, I'd knock the Chocolate malt back to no more than .1kg tops.
Substitute Carafa Special I or II for the Carafa I, so you cut back on the roast factor.

I'm not a huge fan of the roasty coffee quality from too much Carafa, Black, or Chocolate malts, so I'm posting from a personal perspective.

Seems to me a Black IPA should be an IPA first and foremost, and the black colour as an afterthought, rather than the other way round.

 

[bconnery]

To my taste, .25kgCarafa 1 and .25kg Chocolate malts will give you a far too roasty beer, well beyond the IPA style.
Personally, I'd knock the Chocolate malt back to no more than .1kg tops.
Substitute Carafa Special I or II for the Carafa I, so you cut back on the roast factor.

I'm not a huge fan of the roasty coffee quality from too much Carafa, Black, or Chocolate malts, so I'm posting from a personal perspective.

Seems to me a Black IPA should be an IPA first and foremost, and the black colour as an afterthought, rather than the other way round.

While I haven't made one yet I've tried a few and I think this new style is emerging with two sub styles as it were.
There are those that are very much an IPA, with a little black/dark colour, achieved through Carafa Special and other methods, and there are others that too me have a distinct very slight roast and choc edge drowned in hops, almost to the point where I'd almost consider them an American Stout minus some of the roast, rather than a Black IPA as some of the early versions of the style appeared.

That being said, I'd agree whole heartedly with dropping back the chocolate and the carafa special but if you want something with a bit more roast/choc character search for Pot Kettle Black on this forum. The brewer posted some info about it somewhere and he definitely puts a little more in his and from hazy memory was most dismissive of just the carafa etc. to achieve the colour.

Edit: Found the post. He describes his as a porter that's a bit hoppier than usual, so that gives an idea of where he stands...
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=52772

 

[pbrosnan]

Looks pretty good to me. The treacle is an interesting idea, I use cane sugar to get the ABV up but treacle will have the same effect and add some character. I use Caraaroma (7-8%) and a small amount of roasted barley (1-2%) which equates roughly to your crystal and chocolate. The hops are "exotic" by my standards. I tend to use the standard US hops, Simcoe, Chinook, Cascade but that's just me.

 

[sanpedro]

While I haven't made one yet I've tried a few and I think this new style is emerging with two sub styles as it were.
There are those that are very much an IPA, with a little black/dark colour, achieved through Carafa Special and other methods, and there are others that too me have a distinct very slight roast and choc edge drowned in hops, almost to the point where I'd almost consider them an American Stout minus some of the roast, rather than a Black IPA as some of the early versions of the style appeared.

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=52772

I agree with this, there seems to be a range of Black IPAs out there, so its best to decide what end of the spectrum you are aiming for.

I brewed something based on this recipe
http://www.byo.com/stories/recipeindex/art...black-ipa-clone
And with near on 9% carafa it is certainly at the roasty end of the spectrun, if I brewed this again I would back off a little on the dark malt % as I'm finding that the roasty flavours are more dominant than the hops upfront.

 

[BreathingHeat]

I'm drinking this right now and it's a great Black IPA.

"Blackie" Black IPA

Brewed (BIAB) on Sunday 20/3

Recipe

Batch Size: 24 L
Boil Size: 35 L
Estimated OG: 1.070 SG
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:

6.00 kg Pilsner 71.86 %
0.50 kg Rye Malt 5.99 %
0.50 kg Wheat Malt 5.99 %
0.25 kg Crystal, Medium 2.99 %

0.25 kg Carafa Special I 2.99 % (10 minutes to go)
0.25 kg Chocolate Malt 2.99 % (10 minutes to go)

90 minute step mash 66 (152)
Strike temp 55 (130)- 30 minutes rest
up to 65-66 for 60 minutes
Carafa and Chocolate with 15 minutes to go
Mash out at 77 degrees

Boil

28 g Galaxy (60 min)
28 g Cascade (60 min)

8 g Gypsum (60 min)
2 g Chalk (60 min)

56 g Citra [11.10 %] (10 min)
72 g Galaxy [13.70 %] (10 min)

1 g Yeastlife extra Nutrient (10 min)
1/2 Whirlfloc tab (10 min)

1 Pkgs American Ale I (Wyeast Labs #1056) Yeast-Ale

72 g Cascade Dry Hop 14-21 (April 3rd - pulled on April 10)
24 g Citra Dry Hop 21-28 (April 10th)

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

+1 to the 2 styles.

Style 1 - Hoppy AAA that looks black (Obama IPA)
Stye 2 - Stout like with a hint of American hops that manages to push through the roasted grain (Mountain Goat Black IPA - despite their claim "looks like a stout, isn't").

I prefer style 1, if I'm paying for a stout I'm not paying prices that Mountain Goat charge, nor am I brewing with that much extra hops for such a minor taste difference.

I've probably added nothing to the debate - sorry. Just thought I'd put it there though.

@BreathingHeat - your beer looks fantastic - exactly how I imagine a Style 1 Black IPA to look like spec-wise. Loving the use of Galaxy, Cascade and Citra, especially dry hopping Citra - I'm thinking that the fruity taste will sit alongside the roasty bitterness.

Goomba

 

[Pennywise]

I have not used Galaxy myself, but i find a lot of talk about not using it as a 60 min addition, as its a harsh bitterness.
For an IPA i would be looking at using a more neutral hop for your 60 min addition.

I thought Galaxy was good for bitterness due to high alpha?

While high AA% is always good for your bittering additions, you should also look at the cohumolone levels, generally I've found that the high AA hops with high cohumolone levels is always a bit rougher bitterness. Not always a bad thing IMO though, but if your after smooth, I'd be looking at that

 

[sirhendo]

I've done a black IPA and a black IIPA....I guess the idea with this style is to get the colour but without the astringency (burnt flavours) of a stout or porter etc.

Firstly - ditch the chocolate malt IMHO.

My Black IPA used Carafa II Special - it's dehusked to remove the astringency but if you add too much, you can get the astringency to come back.

The Black IIPA used Briess Midnight Wheat at a whopping 750 SRM - this malt blew my mind! Having never used it before I used it sparingly on the first batch to avoid astringency - I didn't quite get the colour I wanted but amazingly no astringency whatsoever. So on the second batch I went all in, got the blackest of black but still no astringency!

Amazing.

I highly recommend this malt for this style.

Enjoy!

Hendo

 

[jonw]

I've jest kegged a Galaxy single hop IPA - it's tasting very promising already. It was ~50 IBU and OG1.058. Seems pretty well balanced. I'd also read that Galaxy cold be a little rough as a bittering hop, and I'd read that the bittering addition in Feral Hop Hog (which is broadly what I'm aiming for) only contributes about half the IBUs, so that's what I went with. The rest of the IBUs came from late additions, and I dry hopped 2.5g/L. Hopping schedule like so for 45L post boil:-

Variety Alpha Amount IBU Form When
Australian Galaxy 13.4 % 35 g 26.4 Loose Pellet Hops 60 Min From End
Australian Galaxy 13.4 % 35 g 16.0 Loose Pellet Hops 20 Min From End
Australian Galaxy 13.4 % 35 g 9.6 Loose Pellet Hops 10 Min From End
Australian Galaxy 13.4 % 35 g 0.0 Loose Pellet Hops At turn off
Australian Galaxy 13.4 % 100 g 0.0 Loose Pellet Hops Dry-Hopped

Cheers,

Jon

 

[Jazzafish]

I guess it depends on what you are shooting for.
Some things to consider:
How dry do you want it to finish? You have ~10% of speciality grains that add great flavours but will leave long chain sugars and some body in the brew. Combined with the treacle, which I expect will ferment like a simple sugar- may encourage the yeast to stop fermenting a few points higher? So it may be worth adding the treacle a little later in the ferment to keep it attenuating or mashing a little longer and lower? Upping the hops may balance this out, but at the cost of session ability.

A trick with the flavours: mix a smaller portion of your specialty grains (in proportion to your proposed recipe) in a coffee press and steep at 70*C for a while. Put in the fridge to chill down. Then take a generic light lager and blend 90% of your lager with ~10% of your specialty mix from the coffee press. This will give you an indicator of your malt profile. Not the same but close enough to the ball park.

Then make a hop tea with the same portions of your late/dry hops and dose this into your sample. This will loosely indicate a hop flavour/aroma to expect.

 

[kfahy]

While there has been some good discussion regarding black ipas in general it seems the OP was looking to clone Thorny Goat or do something inspired by it. I have just knocked off a few bottles of this brew (and it's gooooood). On the label they list the malt and hops.



Malt: Ale, Munich, Crystal, Chocolate, Midnight Wheat

Hops: Galaxy, Motueka


Of course there may be other malts and hops they haven't inculded but if you wanted to get close i would follow their listed ingredient. So KEEP the choolate malt, ditch the carafa and get the colour from the choc and midnight wheat.



the colour reminded me of a schwarzbier, it looked black but against the light there were reddish hues. Use beersmith to get the colour you think is ok, base of ale malt, i'd say a reasonable amount of crystal.



The treacle is interesting. Have you heard that it is an ingredient? I wouldn't have thought it was included, but interesting if it is.



Cheers

K

 

[bevdawg]

Hi all. Thanks so much for the world of information! All really helpfull and can see where each person is coming from. Really trying to get something 'like' Thorny Goat, but with that said been trying as many beers of this style that I can get my hands on and enjoy them all, so don't mind it just being similar to MG.

The treacle came from looking at other people's recipes and noticing one guy had included 0.5kg of brown sugar at 1min. Got me thinking about a friend who brewed a dark ale and used treacle, and I really liked the flavor this gave the beer so thought it could be an interesting addition. As a newbie I'm flying semi blind, so tell me if this is a bad move or not! Seems like a few people think it sounds interesting so I might give it a shot? I 'imagine' it will work well with the style. But I could be wrong.

So at this stage I'm thinking of ditching the carafa, making the choc malt around 0.10kg, and changing my wheat to midnight wheat. Suggestions on midnigh quantity?

 

[Sambrew]

Just brewed a Black IPA myself and used 8% midnight wheat 2% roasted barley 2% chocolate malt- it was BLACK, probably go more wheat less roasted barley next time as it had a little more roast flavour out of the boil than i would have liked... but still pretty nice - Hopped with Amarillo and Simcoe. No dry hopping on this brew might look at it next time, but i want to explore the malt profile and get that right first... I'm sure next time I'll dry hop it.