Crushed Ice In Wort

[fergi]

just browsing through the site and someone made a mention about not putting crushed ice into a brew to cool it down, well i did this last week as i was desperate to bring my temp down from 30 deg b4 i put the yeast in, it was a wheat beer, so i raced around to the pub crabbed a bag of crushed ice and threw in about two litres , now i thought that this would be sterile ice but not so sure now, what do you guys think
fergi

 

[staggalee]

I`d bet you get away with it, but you`ll know now to pre chill 10l. or so of water the day before now, won`t you?

stagga.

 

[buttersd70]

Don't stress about it, its done now.....but I sure wouldn't be doing it again. I'd trust the sanatation of bagged ice about as far as I could throw the sack

 

[reviled]

I allways no chill, and sometimes when I get round to pitching yeast the temps still sitting at 28-30ish

So what I do, is pitch yeast, then put the fermenter in the bath with icy salt water and a wet towel over it... Brings the temp down to desired fermentation temp well before fermentation starts.. And ive also read somewhere that it helps speed up the process of the yeast multiplying and what not...

Am I right in saying that, as long as the temp gets down before fermentation starts its all good? :unsure:

 

[buttersd70]

Am I right in saying that, as long as the temp gets down before fermentation starts its all good? :unsure:

In a kinda, sorta way. The short and much simplified version is that most off flavours (from high temperature) is thrown out in the fermentation stage, not in the reproductive stage, which is why starters can be done at slightly warmer than normal temperatures (I think wyeast reccomend 70F, 22C, from memory, for starters, both ale and lager), and also is why lagers can be pitched at ale temp and then cooled to fermentation temp....you're basically doing the same thing, but with ales. But the higher the temperature, the quicker the yeast will go from stage to stage in the lifecycle, so you need to ensure that the temp comes down reasonably quickly.

 

[reviled]

In a kinda, sorta way. The short and much simplified version is that most off flavours (from high temperature) is thrown out in the fermentation stage, not in the reproductive stage, which is why starters can be done at slightly warmer than normal temperatures (I think wyeast reccomend 70F, 22C, from memory, for starters, both ale and lager), and also is why lagers can be pitched at ale temp and then cooled to fermentation temp....you're basically doing the same thing, but with ales. But the higher the temperature, the quicker the yeast will go from stage to stage in the lifecycle, so you need to ensure that the temp comes down reasonably quickly.

Would you say 3-4 hours is reasonably quickly?

 

[buttersd70]

Would you say 3-4 hours is reasonably quickly?

Yeah, I would. Should be fine...starting at 25 would be better than 28, but hey, you gotta do what you gotta do. The main question to ask yourself is, when doing it this way, have you ever had any problems with the strength and health of the fermentation, or any off flavours as a result? If the answer to that is 'no', then chillax and carry on, imo.

But, a thought....why not chill the cube down in the same way, and then transfer to the fermenter? Not from the start, that defeats the purpose of hot packing it (and has other issues that have been discussed in the NC threads), but just for that last few degrees, from 30 down to pitch temp? Then you can pitch at whatever temps you like....

 

[RobboMC]

Make your own ice in sanitised ice-cream containers. Then you know it's clean.

I make 2 litre blocks that fit nicely into the fermenter, they melt in about 10 minutes.
Smaller cube tray blocks melt faster, a brew mate makes a freezer full before brew day.

 

[reviled]

Yeah, I would. Should be fine...starting at 25 would be better than 28, but hey, you gotta do what you gotta do. The main question to ask yourself is, when doing it this way, have you ever had any problems with the strength and health of the fermentation, or any off flavours as a result? If the answer to that is 'no', then chillax and carry on, imo.

But, a thought....why not chill the cube down in the same way, and then transfer to the fermenter? Not from the start, that defeats the purpose of hot packing it (and has other issues that have been discussed in the NC threads), but just for that last few degrees, from 30 down to pitch temp? Then you can pitch at whatever temps you like....

Shit, why didnt I think of that?? Thats a good idea... Obviously not chilling from the start, but the next day just to bring it down from 30... I should really get a thermometre for my cube

And also, I was under the impression that freezing does the same as boiling ie killing nasties? At least, thats what we were told in relation to my childs water etc...

 

[raven19]

Freezing will more likely just stop/slow any 'nasties' from doing anything, but once it warms back up they shall be there ready to attack again...

+2 for generally being fine if adding ice from servo/pub.

All good learning experiences to strengthen your technique for the next batch...

Cheers.

 

[fergi]

thanks for input guys, i have used my own ice cubes from the fridge be4 but not from the hotel ice fridge, this is what can happen when you dont plan on doing a brew, but when you get up in the morning and decide in a hurry to do one, i dont think the head is agreeing to also do the brew, so a bit of confusion reigns.
i actually tested gravity of the wort which is a muntons wheat beer just then and it does seem a bit tart, hope this is not the infection starting,it is nearly finnished so might get it into a cube
cheers

fergi

 

[Hefty]

Fergi, I've had great success with a technique I read in one brewing book (I can't remember which one):
Instead of just making your own ice blocks, freeze water in 1.25L PET bottles (squish them just slightly before you screw the cap on so they don't swell when they freeze). That way, you can guarantee sanitation by spraying them with whatever no-rinse sanitiser you use just before submerging them in your fermenter.
I did my first partial the other day and 4 bottles lowered the temp of a 10L boil from just sub-boiling to 24*C in about half an hour (made hitting a lower pitching temp easier when I diluted to 23L).

My 2c,
Jono.

 

[James L]

I think by law, companies that make ice need to ensure that the ice they produce is safe for human consumption and therefore sterile.. I think you'd be able to get away with using bagged ice.

This is what i got from the Packaged Ice Association of Australasia Inc code of practice:

All water that is used during the manufacturing process shall be sanitized prior to use (including water used to melt fines).
Ensure the water quality for the production of ice meets the NH & MRC Australian Drinking Water Guidelines. Recommend the use of filtered, activated carbon, sanitizing (ozone or UV light preferred) prior to production.

 

[Pollux]

I personally use ice that I make in 1L takeaway containers...

I don't sanitise them, in the same way I don't sanitise the entire Sydney water network before I take the water out of the tap.....

While I agree that a high level of attention to detail is required in terms of cleanliness and minimising risk of infection when brewing, some people can get a little fanatical. And this is coming from someone who actually has OCD in regards to cleanliness, you don't want to know the combinations of chemicals I use to keep my bathroom clean (although ASIO might )

Just think, if you happen to keep a clean kitchen, and actually empty and clean your fridge/freezer on a regular basis, you should actually be quite fine provided you don't use a container that you just ate leftover spag bol out of....

Same can be said for commercial ice, depending upon where it has come from, what their standards are and their handling practises, I believe it could be even safer than using tap water. Having worked in pubs for a while, I know ice machines, service intervals and testing, and I would happily use ice that came from a machine I knew and trusted.


Just my 2c

 

[Fermented]

I use ice straight out of the automatic ice maker from my fridge. It's just filtered water and probably not as well filtered as the bulk ice making firms. After all, they're trying to have the 'crystal' look which the market finds so attractive.

+1 on Pollux's comments. After all, we top up our fermenters straight from the tap, don't we?

Thinking back - how did everyone brewing in Sydney cope in 98 when there was the big problem with crytosporidium and giardia in the water supply? That would have been awkward.

Cheers - Fermented.

 

[achy02]

Don't stress about it, its done now.....but I sure wouldn't be doing it again. I'd trust the sanatation of bagged ice about as far as I could throw the sack

I use to work in an ice factory
+ 1 on ice not being sterile

 

[fergi]

well i took the top off the wheat beer, plus ice , fermenter to have a look at the mess i could see through the top, horror, i can see the tea bag floating on top with a lot of crud as well, but the thing that caught my attention was a whitish slick hanging around the tea bag, also on the top there seems to be about a dozen 20 cent piece size of the same stuff, it looks very much like an infection starting, now i havent done a wheat b4 but i am sure it wouldnt look like this on nearing fermentation,yeast was safbrew wb 06 ,almost finnished fermenting down to 1010,smells ok but not confident here.
cheers
fergi

 

[buttersd70]

Even those people with excellent sanitation get an infection at one point or another (or so I'm told....fingers crossed this isn't the case, cos if it is, I'm about due )

All beer is infected to some degree, anyway.....so don't chuck a batch too early. If off flavours haven't developed yet, they may take some time....

But if you can get a photo of the problem, and post it up, there are guys on here that can pick if its infected just by looking at it...and probably tell you what with, and what caused it. Depending on what the infection is, you might need to chuck it....but you might be able to salvage at least some of it if you drink it quick enough. Some move faster than others.