Cold Conditoning

[MVZOOM]

Gents,

OK, cold conditioning makes a big difference in the clarity, smell and taste. I understand that during that period, yeast falls out of suspension, causing clarity and taste changes - but what else happens to cause the major differences that are achieved?

Ie.. if it was just a matter of yeast in suspension, we'd all just filter before bottling / kegging. There's more to it - care to enlighten me?

And yes, I searched, to little avail!

Cheers - Mike

 

[tangent]

after about 2 weeks at half a degree in stainless, bitterness mellows, mouthfeel becomes smoother, it's like the whole band starts to play the same song.
also as a side note your beer looks better

 

[MHB]

Cold conditioning also caller Lagering and Chill Proofing, allows several major changes to take place in the beer, apart from the respiration of volatiles and the metabolisation of some undesirable by-products formed during fermentation (maturation).

The proteins that cause chill haze condense and precipitate, ideally the beer is then racked off the crud that has fallen to the bottom during cold conditioning. If the beer is allowed to warm before racking/filtering the proteins can redissolve undoing most of the benefit of cold conditioning.

The removal of these soluble proteins is one of the reasons Lager is so much crisper and cleaner on the pallet than traditional Ale.

MHB

 

[Hogan]

The proteins that cause chill haze condense and precipitate, ideally the beer is then racked off the crud that has fallen to the bottom during cold conditioning. If the beer is allowed to warm before racking/filtering the proteins can redissolve undoing most of the benefit of cold conditioning.

MHB

[post="121488"][/post]​

The lifting of the wort to room temperature after CC'ing is something that has had me puzzled for some time MHB and I am glad of this explanation.

One question: once it is racked off the crud to bulk prime, should the beer be allowed to return to room temp prior to bottling?

Cheers, Hogan.

 

[Steve]

Hogan
Take the cold conditioned fermenter out of the fridge 48 hours prior to bulk priming and bottling to bring up to room temp. Say a thursday for example and bulk prime then bottle on the saturday. I read somewhere (cant remember where) that if you prime and bottle beer at 2 degrees as it warms up in the bottle you may get bombs??? Anyone clarify this?
Cheers
Steve

 

[Hogan]

Hogan
Take the cold conditioned fermenter out of the fridge 48 hours prior to bulk priming and bottling to bring up to room temp.

[post="121528"][/post]​

Hi Steve

Does not what you have said above contradict what MHB puts forward? (not that there is anything wrong with contradiction).

As I read his post MHB says that after the wort has been racked off the crud at the cold temp, then it may be (as I interpret it) either bulk primed and then allowed to come to room temp prior to bottling or bulk primed after coming to room temp and then bottled. Would appreciate views on what is the right method.

Cheers, Hogan.

 

[MHD]

I would thing the act of racking to a bottling bucket and then filling bottles would mean by the time the cap went on your beer (precious beer) would be at close enough to room temp

 

[Steve]

Im not sure Hogan about what MHB means about:

If the beer is allowed to warm before racking/filtering the proteins can redissolve undoing most of the benefit of cold conditioning.

My advice was advice given to me and it works fine with the lagers/pilseners that I done in the fridge (maybe about 8 or 9 to date).

Cheers
Steve

 

[Ross]

Your Cold conditioned beer should be syphoned off into your bulk priming container & then allowed to warm up to room temp for priming & bottling...
If bottle priming, you can syphon off cold into bottles if you prefer & allow to warm before priming.

Cold beer (especially lagers that are still fermenting at low temps)) can contain a lot of dissolved CO2, which makes priming the cold beer to the correct level a bit of a lottery.

cheers Ross

 

[Hogan]

Your Cold conditioned beer should be syphoned off into your bulk priming container & then allowed to warm up to room temp for priming & bottling...

[post="121549"][/post]​

Ross

I have peviously followed the recommendation of pouring the priming sugar solution into the bottom of the bulk prime vessel then racking the wort through the tube so that it swirls into the priming solution and give it a non vigorous stir when it is full.

Are you saying that it is OK to rack the wort into the container, let it get to room temp, then pour the priming solution into the container and stir, then bottle.
Would this give the solution proper distribution?

If the first method was followed (ie. priming solution in bottom of container and wort swirled into it) how long could the primed wort be left to warm to ambient prior to commencing bottling - considering that the final stage of co2 charging would have already commenced? Hope this makes sense.


Cheers, Hogan.

 

[razz]

For what it's worth this is how I bottled many moons ago.

1. Chill fermenter in fridge to clear/settle yeast.
2. Dissolve priming sugar in 500 ml boiling water and add to sanitised bottling bucket.
3. Racked beer to bottling bucket.
4. Paid no attention to temp of beer whilst bottling.
5. Bottle beer and kept at steady room temp for two weeks.

:beer:

 

[neonmeate]

For what it's worth this is how I bottled many moons ago.

4. Paid no attention to temp of beer whilst bottling.

[post="121627"][/post]​

but read what ross said above: the beer absorbs more Co2 when cold.

I always run my priming totals through a calculator like this to allow for it:

http://www.tastybrew.com/calculators/priming.html

 

[Phrak]

http://www.tastybrew.com/calculators/priming.html

[post="121628"][/post]​

Grrrr, friggen US Imperial units... when will they join the rest of the world?!

Yes, yes, I know I can convert them, but I'm too lazy to at the moment!!

 

[razz]

Good point Phrak, but does it apply to still beer that has finished fermenting ?

 

[razz]

Good point Phrak, but does it apply to still beer that has finished fermenting ?

[post="121633"][/post]​

Of course it does John (idiot)
What I should have said was, The fermented beer that goes into the bottling bucket will have little to no CO2 in solution regardless of temp, that's why I never paid attention to the temp. :blink:

Regards, John

 

[Ross]

Are you saying that it is OK to rack the wort into the container, let it get to room temp, then pour the priming solution into the container and stir, then bottle.
Would this give the solution proper distribution?

If the first method was followed (ie. priming solution in bottom of container and wort swirled into it) how long could the primed wort be left to warm to ambient prior to commencing bottling - considering that the final stage of co2 charging would have already commenced? Hope this makes sense.

[post="121595"][/post]​

Hogan,

I haven't bottled in a while & I always preferred addiing sugar to each bottle, so I'm no authority on bulk priming - But don't prime the beer unless you're ready to bottle, the brew could kick off again quite quickly. If you're bulk priming I'd be dissolving the priming sugar/malt in a little boiled water & then carfefully stiring it in. Hopefully someone will speak up, if there's a better way of doing it...

Cheers Ross

 

[Stuster]

The CO2 in the wort will vary quite a bit with temperature. According to the very handy BeerIsGood's Priming Calculator the amount is 1.6vols at 1*C and only 0.8vols at 22*C. So for a fairly standard carbonation, you would need 60g dextrose for the cold beer and 120g for the warmer beer.

I tend to use this calculator now for my priming and it works well for me.
Cheers
Stuart

 

[MHB]

In my earlier post I was referring to Lagering; (A.K.A.:- Cold Conditioning / Chill Proofing) this is a post fermentation treatment of beer.

Not cold brewing which precedes Lagering in the traditional German brewing process. In which Krausened beer undergoes secondary fermentation at around 5 C in closed containers at low temperatures and under pressure. Under these conditions enough CO2 remains in solution to provide the carbonation in the finished beer.

Beer was then Lagered at -1 to +3 C or so for a period of up to months.
Then bottled, cold, retaining its CO2; this type of beer is not bottle conditioned.
That it is not bottle conditioned is one of the defining characteristics of the Lager family of beers.

If you are making a Lager beer and want to bottle condition, rather than ferment it in a temperature controlled environment in pressurised containers, and still want to get most of the benefits of Lager beer, you must rack the beer cold to get it off the cake of condensed protein and yeast that has precipitated during the Lagering stage.

If the beer is allowed to warm while still in contact with the precipitate the proteins will redissolve. This will negate the benefits of cold conditioning. These proteins cause chill haze as well contributing flavours that are undesirable in a Lager beer.

This is a step by step process that will work:-

No doubt there will be enough people with other ideas but this is a straight forward process that has helped lots of people make high quality Lager style beer with out any unpleasant little bottle bombs. If you are starting out try this process.


Brew at a temperature appropriate to the yeast you are using.
of the way through the ferment rack the beer.
When fermentation is complete: Cool to 0C +/- 1C
Lager. Rule of thumb is 7 days @ -1C, 14 days @ 0C, 21 days @ 1C etc.
When lagering is complete (i.e. the beer is crystal clear)
Rack the beer. Cold.
Allow the beer to warm to air temperature for 48 hours (this allows excess dissolved CO2 to dissipate simplifying the priming sugar calculations, the rest also allows other volatiles to escape improving the beer)
Bulk prime and add yeast (if you have lagered properly there wont be enough yeast to bottle condition the beer. I recommend 514 this is the cheep yeast under the lids of most kit beers, it is remarkably neutral). It is a good idea to hydrate the yeast then mix it and the priming sugar into the beer, insuring even distribution of the yeast and priming sugar.
Allow to bottle condition at ambient temperatures.

MHB

 

[Trough Lolly]

G'day all,
A few points that might be worth noting...
1. I have some doubts as to the efficacy of cold conditioning ales. Yes, lagers obviously benefit, but ale yeast will go dormant at around 1C. If the yeast is dormant, that means it won't further mature the beer, but you will get brighter beer as the yeast and protein floccs out and settles in the bottom of the conditioning tank/fermenter.
2. Ross is quite correct in that CO2 levels in beer is a function of the temperature of the beer itself - and there is a risk that priming a cold beer that already has a quantity of CO2 in solution will result in bottle bombs, especially if the beer is bottled cold and then stored at a substantially warmer room temp. Remember, that the CO2 will be less inclined to remain in the beer if the ambient temperature surrounding it is the same temp, or warmer, and of a lesser pressure - and that's how headspace pressure is formed, and in the more extreme case, bottle bombs as the CO2 is looking to get out of dodge...
3. Hogan - your bulk priming methodology is quite familiar looking and sound...what is of more concern is bottling too soon. First thing to do with the kit instructions is toss them in the bin! Bulk priming beer is fine - but just make sure that you've at least concluded primary fermentation before any form of priming commences - as Ross suggests, "...don't prime the beer unless you're ready to bottle..". And as Razz points out, if you've got the fermentation side right, it isn't so important to note the temp of the beer when you prime / bottle it.
4. When I bottled beer, I didn't have a computer program to tell me how much to carbonate, so I started low and gradually increased priming sugar rates and tried to keep all other factors, including temps, constant until I got to a level of carbonation that I enjoyed - it took time, but I gained experience.
5. MHB's protocol is a good starter - but I'd give the lager a diacetyl rest between primary and lagering (a 48hr rest at room temps enables the yeast to remove the diacetyl (2,3-butanedione) derived from alpha-acetolactate precursors that are secreted by the yeast when it synthesised amino acids - valine and leucine to be precise!) //tech beergeek mode ends!// I'd then prime and bottle the lager cold, once lagering had concluded - and I try to lager for at least 2 months at around 3C.

Cheers,
TL