Co2 Flush Of Bottle Head Space

[marlow_coates]

Hey guys and girls,

Have been doing a bit of bottling lately, and was considering flushing the head space with CO2 prior to capping.

Would this help cut down on oxidation over the long term? (years)
Would it stop the bottles carbonating as there is no O2 for the yeast?
Is it a complete waste of time and gas?

Figured this might help prolong the life of my quaffers, as well as the long term storage beers as well.
Cheers for any advice

Marlow

 

[Supra-Jim]

Hi Marlow,

Probably better to flush the bottle prior to filling, the heavier CO2 will remain and the lighter o2 will exit.

Reducing the O2 in the bottle will help extend the life through reducing the potential for oxidation.

Co2 in te headspace will not stop carbonation as the yeast only use o2 for growing and mutliplying. you want them consuming the carbonating sugars and producing CO2 for carbonation. This will still occur.

Cheers SJ

 

[Bribie G]

The beer should be pretty well de-oxygenated by the yeast during fermentation, and would continue fermenting the priming sugars. If you are serious about flushing and long term storage, one of these would be a good investment for $99 provided you already have gas available.

No affiliation. B)

Or if you are kegging most of your brews and just need to do a few 'example' bottles of each brew and using PET then one of these is also a good idea and don't use priming sugaz. A couple of guys at BABBs brew, filter then gas up instantly and you wouldn't guess in a million years that the beer was sitting in a fermenter two hours ago (Kram's robust porter for example, that won the dark mini comp a couple of months ago)

 

[Screwtop]

If filling from keg, leave the required headspace full of froth (bubbles full of Co2) and cap. Or you could fill a jug with Co2 and pour a little into the top on each bottle prior to capping, dificult though as the Co2 is invisible :lol: pouring Co2 out of one jug into another was a fun experiment at school.

Screwy

 

[marlow_coates]

Cheers SJ, never thought of filling up bottles prior to beer going in.
Also the yeast not needing to mutliply, just eat a few more sugars, makes sense.

BribieG, I haven't really looked at the counter pressure bottle fillers, simply due to cost, and I don't want to put beer into the kegs, then into bottles (seems like too much transfering).

I just rack to priming vessel, then straight into bottles.

Screwtop, the idea of me sitting around pouring invisible gas into a bottle, would give the neighbours, and girlfriend, too much reason to think I have gone too far with the brewing.
To get the gas in I would just take of the quick connect, clean the line, turn on and sink into each bottle for a few seconds.

Cheers for the advice, it clears the process up.

Marlow

 

[Supra-Jim]

Sounds good Marlow, just remember to keep the pressure nice and low, don't want ot be firing bottles around the place

Could also look at adapting something like this to clip onto your gas line. Would make giving the bottles a quick squirt of Co2 nice and simple. I reckon a couple of seconds is a bit long too, one quick blast should be enough.

Cheers SJ

 

[Nick JD]

When I'm bottling I don't immediately cap the bottles, but let them sit for a few minutes bubbling away (as the filling head reduces and the residual CO2 fizzes off) filling the headspace with CO2.

 

[marlow_coates]

NickJD, I read your post recently saying this, which is actually what started me thinking about flushing with CO2.

I did leave the bottles for about 20 min on Tues night before capping / corking, and hoped this was working. I assume as the cold conditioned beer comes warms up, the CO2 is released?

My only thought with this was that, the amount of CO2 in the liquid is the amount that was present at the highest temperature dueing fermentation. Crash chilling traps this level of CO2 in the liquid, and it is this level that needs to be considered when calculating priming sugar measures.

So as an example, my beer gets to 21C for the diacetyl rest near the end of fermentation. I crash chill too 2-3C for 24hrs. Rack to priming vessel, and then to bottles. As the temp rises to 5-6C during this process, is CO2 coming out of solution? Or will it not start to come out of solution untill it reaches the 21C again?

Not sure of the answer here. But when the brew is completely finished and chilled, and I put into bottles, I cannot hear any bubbling or see any bubbling.

Marlow

 

[brando]

Hey guys and girls,

Have been doing a bit of bottling lately, and was considering flushing the head space with CO2 prior to capping.

Would this help cut down on oxidation over the long term? (years)
Would it stop the bottles carbonating as there is no O2 for the yeast?
Is it a complete waste of time and gas?

Figured this might help prolong the life of my quaffers, as well as the long term storage beers as well.
Cheers for any advice

Marlow

Marlow,

Do you actually have an oxidation problem, or is it all about prevention?

I wonder how many brewers have ever sat down to taste a beer and actually thought to themselves "damn, this beer is definitely oxidised"??

 

[marlow_coates]

Haha. Funny you ask that Brando, because no, I have never had an oxidation problem, and don't even know what it should taste like.

In earlier brewing days, beers were racked to secondary with only the bottling wand attachment, and I glorified in the marvelous head that was produced by this procedure :lol:
So I suppose all my earlier beers were oxidised to buggery.
They still tasted good to me though, untill I changed everything, and started making nice beers.

Now I gently rack, only to priming vessel, via sanitised tubing, after reading about oxidation on here.
Because brewing techniques, temps, ingrediants and procedures have changed so drastically from those early days, I have no idea whether the 'old brews' flavours were from oxidation or other means. (likely a mix of all the mistakes early brewers make)

The reason I am keen to do this now, is to mainly prevent oxidation in beers that I am ageing for years at a time. RIS's, IIPA's, and maybe one day a series of barley wines.
Also, I can cut out one other factor as a cause when a brew has an off flavour.

Marlow

 

[Leigh]

Hi Marlow,

Probably better to flush the bottle prior to filling, the heavier CO2 will remain and the lighter o2 will exit.

Reducing the O2 in the bottle will help extend the life through reducing the potential for oxidation.

When I fill bottles, I fill to the brim (pushing all gases out of the bottle). As I remove the bottling tool the beer level drops and atmospheric gases enter the top of the bottle.

I'm with Brando, I don't bother flushing with CO2 and have never had anybody comment on my beers being oxidised.

 

[floppinab]

the heavier CO2 will remain and the lighter o2 will exit.

Not for very long, the situation for gases is not static or simple, air borne gases will constantly mix with whatever is in the bottle, just because CO2 is heavier than air doesn't mean it will completely exclude any air borne gases, unless there is a strong constant release of CO2 from the beer there will continue to be a sizeable portion of O2 in the bottle through typical gas mixing mechanisms.
Even if you flush the bottle with CO2 prior to filling when you retract the filler you'd be sucking back in more air, pretty ineffective.

I think the only way is to do it is with a carbed beer, ensure the beer foams over the mouth of the bottle and capping it prior the foaming falling back. The foam will contain largely CO2 and will have excluded any air.

 

[beers]

If your bottle conditioning wouldn't any oxygen pick up, as long as it's minimal, be reabsorbed by the yeast during the conditioning?

 

[sumo]

I always cap on foam. So when I pull out the filler tube, I give it a couple of quick bursts to cause some foam then cap on that.

The foam dissipates in the bottle and you have not additional O2 in there.

 

[Fourstar]

Taken from a previous post i made:

Pretty simple actually. Taking the notion that CO2 is heavier than oxygen, I disconnect my gas post (damn i love JG quick release fittings). Stick the gas tube from the regulator deep into the bottle, crank the reg to around 100kpa and turn the bottle on. You will actually hear the air being pushed out from a sharp whistle to a deep drone as it becomes CO2 against CO2. Then i simply leave the bottles next to me in the coopers box etc whilst i begin my bottling. i do everything in a draft-free area so majority fo the co2 should stay in the bottles without any issues.

Now i know this isnt as good as CPBF and im not considering it as a replacment. But the difference between O2 in the headspace with my method is it really that much of an issue? Im sure there would be a crapload more from beer that is bottle conditioned direct from the fermenter compared to mine.

My main concern is the beer coming in contact with O2 while she fills. IMO, once you pop the lid on, any O2 in the headspace will be pushed up against the bottle top as some CO2 comes out of solution from the beer.

All of my processes post fermentation get this CO2 hit. Empty transfer keg gets purged when kegging from the fermenter. Bottles when bottling from the keg/fermenter, same deal. Keg to Keg transfer, Recieving keg gets the same.

Cheers!