Christmas Island Drownings.

[PistolPatch]

I was scared starting this thread but also compelled. As I said, in my original post, I don't have complete answers.

Thanks to those of you who have responded here in a way that reflects you are human - you feel things, have empathy for others, you can put yourself in their shoes. You guys have all written beautifully. And beauty, in my sense of the word, is what being human is all about. Their is little beauty in ugliness but there is always at least some beauty in the ugliest of things.

Before I write any more on beauty, I want to acknowledge strongbeer and ThirstyBoy. I had no idea what to do when I saw strongbeer's post. I found it shocking and kept thinking that I was missing something. Maybe it was a joke of some sort that my brain couldn't see? Thank you ThirstyBoy for writing such a beautiful and forceful reply to strongbeer.

Strongbeer: I'm going to thank you as well for writing your apology. It was a bit of a relief to see that you admitted that you had crossed the line and this deserves some credit. There are many schools of thought on whether genes or environment affect or limit aspects or your personality. What is known is that if someone has a belief, they will look for supposed facts that back that belief up...

We all get emails that are anti-ethnic groups. Many are well-written but, with a simple google search, you will find they are bullshit. (Refugees here do not get hand-outs but from the emails you get, you will be lead to believe they live in paradise. As for the anti-Muslim emails, I can't even begin to start refuting all of those.)

Strongbeer, I would ask you to do a few things which I think are sensible...

1. Do not watch, "A Current Affair," and "Today Tonight": I don't mind writing here that most of what these programs display are at least contrived and sometimes, totally fraudulent. (An old next door neighbour of mine was actually paid to appear on one of the programs as being someone who won a million dollars in the Lottery and then, "lost it all." It was all pure bullshit.)

2. Watch "Media Watch" religiously: If you think the above experience of mine is incredible (can't be believed), watch this program.

3. Go to the ABC Website: We should be very proud of the ABC. The ABC journalists often risk their lives to report a story accurately. You will learn a lot more from 'Four Corners' and 'Foreign Correspondent' than from 'Today Tonight' or 'A Current Affair.' (It is the ABC who is responsible for there even being a possibility of the smugglers on this boat being arrested.)

So, do some research and get informed.

Whatever you do strongbeer, don't even think, ever again, about asking me to put put myself in your shoes (in your current state of mind) for even a split second. This whole post here has taken me about two hours to write (so far) and it is soley aimed at making you try and think differently.

What I think you really need to do, if you are interested in humanity, is stop and think, just like I asked you to do in my original post, about how serious this issue is. I have no easy solutions. Your willingness to apologise and think even a little on this issue is encouraging. There will be many others out there thinking like you but who haven't bothered to post.

Your post though to me, exhibits a primitiveness of thinking. Your post encourages hate whilst the others encourage love. History shows that hate only succeeds on occasion and for a very short time. Hate, biologically and ecologically, rarely makes sense.

So, what is the rationale behind your hate or dis-approval? You seem to think that refugees can come here and get heaps of money. This is pure fiction and this fiction can be easily sourced and verified. So strongbeer, did you do any research at alll?

The more important question to me is why are you even hating? Hating is very easy and requires no skill. Investigating, loving, honouring, exploring, celebrating others etc, requires a lot more thought and skill than hating.

Hating is the most primitive and least successful human behaviour I know of. I actually can't understand how hating can be fun beside developing some primitive camaraderie amongst like-minded cave-men and women. To me, hating is the most primitive way of living. The word, "religion," actually means 'way of living'.

So, strongbeer, what is your, 'way of living'? Is it based on love or hate? Should you teach your children and grandchildren your philosophy? How will that serve them?

 

[PistolPatch]

The above post actually took me quite a few hours to write so I haven't acknowledged the four or five posts before mine above.

 

[browndog]

So which white Australian on the first fleet requested immigration rights from the indigenous Australians whose country was invaded and who suffered near genocide?

This country is founded on illegal immigration (aka invasion).

Threads like this one and the various gay threads of late have enabled me to add more than a dozen people to my ignore list.

To be honest, i dont know why i bother coming here anymore.

Smurto, this is a beer forum, if you are looking for philanthopists, you better find a new site. people here hate boat people, believe in jesus, maybe have seen ufos and definitely will dissagree with everything you reckon is the meaning of life. Get over it, come here to talk beer, religon and politics are fine in the off topic section, but you have to realise that not everyone here float on your mental plain.

cheers

Browndog

 

[PistolPatch]

Browndog, my old friend, this is in the off-topic forum!

If people here hate boat people, believe in Jesus, have seen UFO's etc then I don't think you'd see me posting here let alone my original post. You know and have met me and therefore know I am pretty reasonable.

What we are talking about in this thread is not brewing though there are many brewing similtudes. Here we are talking about humanity. Some brewers feel it, some obviously don't. Those that do seem to be writing productive things so I don't understand why you would try and limit them. Your wife is Asian if my memory serves me correctly. I thought you would back her up? So, even though off-topic, what's your thinking here mate because I think I am on pretty much the same mental plane as DrSmurto?

 

[browndog]

Browndog, my old friend, this is in the off-topic forum!

If people here hate boat people, believe in Jesus, have seen UFO's etc then I don't think you'd see me posting here let alone my original post. You know and have met me and therefore know I am pretty reasonable.

What we are talking about in this thread is not brewing though there are many brewing similtudes. Here we are talking about humanity. Some brewers feel it, some obviously don't. Those that do seem to be writing productive things so I don't understand why you would try and limit them. Your wife is Asian if my memory serves me correctly. I thought you would back her up? So, even though off-topic, what's your thinking here mate because I think I am on pretty much the same mental plane as DrSmurto?

Pat, I'm on your side, smurto, said he doesn't want to come here any more because of some peoples comments, I was trying to say that everyone has an opinion and this is not a philanthropist website, so he should be prepared for dissagreements. If you read what I posted earlier you will see that I felt very strongly for the people in trouble and the folk watching what was happening.

browndog loves boat people, crab people and all manner of weird people.

 

[PistolPatch]

Pat... I was trying to say that everyone has an opinion and this is not a philanthropist website, so he should be prepared for dissagreements. If you read what I posted earlier you will see that I felt very strongly for the people in trouble and the folk watching what was happening.

browndog loves boat people, crab people and all manner of weird people.

Got ya now old mate

I did read your counterpoint though in your first post about food and air-conditioning. I reckon we need to check into stuff like this a bit more. Whenever I see good reporting, it seems to contradict the easy, sensational reporting. A few pics and a headline can easily distort the truth and there are no penalties for doing so as Media Watch proves almost weekly.

Now, when I see reports such as people on Christmas Island protesting about food and air-conditioning, I stop and think...

Would they really be worried about food and air-con two days after such a tragedy or did the media just do a bit of cut and pasting etc? This distortion happens daily and passes from one media outlet to another in the blink of a fax/email.

If they really were worried about food and air-con, then I'll be the first person to say, "Go and get ......ed"

Media freedom is a great thing but we haven't coupled it with responsibility. As Media Watch proves time and again, the media can distort anything they want without penalty. If you and I had a business and ran it the same way, we would be in court every day for fraud.

That last sentence isn't embellishment, it is fact so...

The next time you hear or see a report that seems to contradict common sense (such as the one about Christmas Islanders protesting about food and air-con one or two days after the drownings we are talking about here) you will be on very safe ground making the statement, "That is probably total bullshit."

Thanks browndog - looks like you are still teaching me things,

Pat

 

[browndog]

Got ya now old mate

I did read your counterpoint though in your first post about food and air-conditioning. I reckon we need to check into stuff like this a bit more. Whenever I see good reporting, it seems to contradict the easy, sensational reporting. A few pics and a headline can easily distort the truth and there are no penalties for doing so as Media Watch proves almost weekly.

Now, when I see reports such as people on Christmas Island protesting about food and air-conditioning, I stop and think...

Would they really be worried about food and air-con two days after such a tragedy or did the media just do a bit of cut and pasting etc? This distortion happens daily and passes from one media outlet to another in the blink of a fax/email.

If they really were worried about food and air-con, then I'll be the first person to say, "Go and get ......ed"

Media freedom is a great thing but we haven't coupled it with responsibility. As Media Watch proves time and again, the media can distort anything they want without penalty. If you and I had a business and ran it the same way, we would be in court every day for fraud.

That last sentence isn't embellishment, it is fact so...

The next time you hear or see a report that seems to contradict common sense (such as the one about Christmas Islanders protesting about food and air-con one or two days after the drownings we are talking about here) you will be on very safe ground making the statement, "That is probably total bullshit."

Thanks browndog - looks like you are still teaching me things,

Pat

Pat, life is the most precious thing there is.

 

[Murray]

I've often thought that instead of vilifying people smugglers, we should regulate them. Give out licences and regulate vessels for safety. Recognise the reality that refugees are going to want to come here and make it safe.

 

[InCider]

I've often thought that instead of vilifying people smugglers, we should regulate them. Give out licences and regulate vessels for safety. Recognise the reality that refugees are going to want to come here and make it safe.

We kind of do already... combined with immigration. It's the access to hard currency, education and political upheaval and persecution that make unofficial boat travel the only option.

 

[jayse]

When I saw this first I thought this is gunna be a one sided thread in that there are some people who really don't care about these people and they will not be given the light of day and they will just cop abuse from the others for being hatefull or whatever.
Wether through simply hating all people or maybe ignorance of the situation or any other reasons, either way what ever the reasons people have a right to feel that way. Should people be dragged over the coals and refered to as the scum of the earth simply because they have no compassion for certain people?
How can you really proberly debate the situation when anyone who posts from the other side has been basically called morally corupt ignorant arseholes? maybe they are, maybe they are not but either way I think they are equally intitled to voice their opinion without people getting on a high horse and judging them badly, educate them if you think they are delusional about the real situation or whatever but I don't think posting negative personal judgements of these people against boat people is helping.

I am sure there are many others here that feel the same way as they do but would not dream of posting here because of the backlash they will get and that is why I thought this thread would turn into just a bashing of people who say anything which may be deemed as hatefull and therefore completey one sided.
Is there a right or wrong side to be standing on? clearly most people think there is but if you are serious about the topic then you need to hear the otherside without passing down negative personal judgement.

I am not gunna take any sides here on the topic i am talking more to the judgement of other members, Pat talks of hate, would negatively judging someone for having a hard line against boat people also be hate, I don't know. I just hate to be judged by my comments and actions, just because someone may have a harsh response to a specific issue that you disagree with that does not make them and evil hatefull *******.

So my point? who knows, I would just like people to try and keep the actuall personal judgement of others out of it.

 

[bum]

I've got no real issue with your post, Jayse, but this:

I just hate to be judged by my comments and actions

is a real stumper, mate. A proper head-scratcher.

 

[manticle]

....

While I agree that everyone needs to be given a platform to speak and not be shot down for an opinion (hopefully reasoned debate in place of personal insults) it is exactly someone's comments and actions on which they should be judged - as opposed to which school they went to, which country they come from, what colour their skin is or who they shag.

Pat went to a fair effort to address strongbeer's comments - he didn't just castigate strongbeer. Strongbeer's comments were also pretty insensitive - something admitted to in subsequent posts.

In my experience (possibly meaningless) people who are anti-immigration aren't afraid to speak. they often think they are somehow fighting the good fight for ordinary people against political correctness.

Say whatever you want to say. That's your right. My right is to disagree. I try and make mine not personal but calling people illegal queue jumpers is pretty personal (and judging people you don't know based on their supposed actions).

 

[bum]

In my experience (possibly meaningless) people who are anti-immigration aren't afraid to speak. they often think they are somehow fighting the good fight for ordinary people against political correctness.

Bloody Nanny Staters have got people afraid to say what is right!

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Jayse - ivdont particularly agree with you, but certainly see your point. However.... (responding because i am certainly one person guilty of making a judgement about someone personally in this thread) .... I think that most of the people in this thread who have made some sort of an argument, provided some reasoning, given some thought - to their opinions that oppose generous treatment of asylum seekers, have actually been listend to and argued against in a quite reasonable way. Dissagreed with yes, written off as decent human beings, no. Its only the casual invective, the notion that somehow those people "deserved" what happened to them, the flippant dismissal of people's suffering - that has (predominantly) been actually judged and condemned out of hand - and in my mind, that judgement at least, is right and good.

Sure, basically good people with different opinions post on this topic - but bad hate filled people do too, and there is nothing wrong with pointing them out when you see them.

 

[jayse]

Good point there thirsty, I don't have any reply really just acknowledging the replies.

On my comment I don't like to be judged by my comments and actions that proberly does not make sense, what I meant was its easy to judge someone by one action or one comment but that is often not an accurate judgement.
If I were to be judged by my peers here on AHB simply by my actions etc around them then I am pretty much maybe a drunk idiot and that is all because that is the only side of me you might see. In reality that is only a small part of what I am it is not what I am in a nut shell.
Also many peoples internet persona does not accurately reflect their real character.

I can see however if someone did come along and say 'serve them right' or some such then they are not doing themselves very much favours here. In that case they just made an arse out of themselves, we all do it at some time I am sure but that does not mean a complete arse is all we are.

If someone says 'they knew the risks involved and now suffered the harsh reality of what could happen' , that is how I read one of the posts that got slammed by a few, that is not the same as saying they deserved what they got and to me is a fair comment.
The desperation as to why they took those risks is not something I wish to get into.

 

[bum]

On my comment I don't like to be judged by my comments and actions that proberly does not make sense, what I meant was its easy to judge someone by one action or one comment but that is often not an accurate judgement.

Ah, yeah. Fair call that.

 

[manticle]

Good point there thirsty, I don't have any reply really just acknowledging the replies.

On my comment I don't like to be judged by my comments and actions that proberly does not make sense, what I meant was its easy to judge someone by one action or one comment but that is often not an accurate judgement.

Much better put, thanks for the clarification.

 

[_HOME_BREW_WALLACE_]

Freedom of speech is one of the greatest things about Australia, one thing these "boat people" have probably not experienced. But as strongbeer has demonstrated its too easy to post your thoughts and put your foot in your mouth (remember, once you have posted it, its there for millions to see).

@ strongbeer: As PP posted, I also thankyou for admitting you crossed the line, I too have posted some stupid shit that has probably scarred me on-line for life. But in the last 2 months i have had a life & mind changing experience that i am proud to say i will NEVER EVER be as single-minded as i was EVER AGAIN.

@ Manticle: For the last 3 months i have been working along-side an Iraqi immigrant who came to australia in 1994, He is a bloody good person! He has a wife and 3 kids similair to me a couple of months time. He is a hard worker, VERY smart and now him and his family are very close friends of me and my family.

Although i may never know if he came here by boat, plane, car, train or even a UFO....... I couldnt care less, we're mates now and probably the best mate i have ever had!

I hope this kind of puts some sort of happy ending to this thread.

 

[bum]

i am proud to say i will NEVER EVER be as single-minded as i was EVER AGAIN.

You seem very certain about that.

 

[_HOME_BREW_WALLACE_]

You seem very certain about that.

I mean it bum!

Nah i mean it! Without going into detail my actions have had consequences i have to deal with. Which i can relate back to other things, this included. I'm a different person i was 6 months ago and i am PROUD of it!