Chimay Brewing Temp?

[dans6401]

Hi,
Been reading brew like a monk (highly recommend) and as those who have read it will know it does not have recipes but more gives you an understanding of what ingredients and methods the Belgian monks use. The thing is it says that Chimay is pitched at 20, fermented at 28 for 4 days then in secondary at 32 for 3 days. I understand that at this temp certain flavour profiles will become more apparent, but it seems quite high from what (little) i know. Anyone tried brewing at such a high temperture before? Would you recommend a lower, longer fermentation? The yeast i'm using is recultured from a bottle of Chimay blue.
Thanks

 

[megs80]

There's a good video on youtube about chimay. They interview the monks about the beer and their process. Can't remember specifics but I remember they ferment their white and red for three days and the blue for five.

 

[murrayr]

be careful about using yeast recultured from the bottle.
can't remember if chimay do it (but i think they do), but some of those places pitch a second round of yeast at bottling time which is quite different to what they use for fermentation.
murray

 

[brettprevans]

Chimay bottle yeast is chimay fermentation yeast. Brew like a monk says so.
I've brewed at those temps for a Belgian and it was fine. The info in BLM should be accurate. Lots of people use it as a resourse and Stan H has no hidden agenda so it's good info.

 

[murrayr]

my mistake, i must be thinking of other beers.
apologies

 

[brettprevans]

Chimay bottle yeast is chimay fermentation yeast. Brew like a monk says so.
I've brewed at those temps for a Belgian and it was fine. The info in BLM should be accurate. Lots of people use it as a resourse and Stan H has no hidden agenda so it's good info.

Quite a few of the big Belgian producers use a differant bottling yeast ro fermentation. Ur right about that. Quite a few use iso-hop now also incl chimay. Tsk tsk to them

 

[dans6401]

Thanks for the replies.

Chimay bottle yeast is chimay fermentation yeast. Brew like a monk says so.
I've brewed at those temps for a Belgian and it was fine. The info in BLM should be accurate. Lots of people use it as a resourse and Stan H has no hidden agenda so it's good info.

citymorgue2 do you remember how long you fermented at those temps for? Also did you give it a yeast top up when transfering to secondary?
I've cranked the temps up to about 25 and the yeast really seems to be kicking on (big, funny looking bubbles). Hydrometer is sitting at 50. Brewed it a week ago so i may have stuffed up with proper temp control, but i can't help myself. Have to keep experimenting.

 

[manticle]

I brewed at about 24 with the wy 1214 (supposedly chimay strain) and got a lot of banana and fusel alcohols. However I also added too much candi sugar in and added it all at once rather than incrementally.

A more recent dubbel using 3787 at 20 -22 seems to be coming out much better (less candi, added in stages after primary).

I'd suggest brewing the first one in temp regions you're used to and ramping up the next one if you think it needs more esters.

 

[brettprevans]

Thanks for the replies.


citymorgue2 do you remember how long you fermented at those temps for? Also did you give it a yeast top up when transfering to secondary?
I've cranked the temps up to about 25 and the yeast really seems to be kicking on (big, funny looking bubbles). Hydrometer is sitting at 50. Brewed it a week ago so i may have stuffed up with proper temp control, but i can't help myself. Have to keep experimenting.

i would have to see what m notes said, but it would have been something like pitch yeast at 19C or so, then let fermentation raise temp up tpo low 20's let it ferment around those temps for say 2/3rds of the fermenting time then gentle ramp up the temp to higher 20's for a few days for extra character and to help yeast ultra active and chew up the last of the fermenatable sugars. you then either want to let it cool down or crash chill once fermentation is finished

Manticle is right about gradually 'feeding' the brew by gradually adding sugars. also you dont want really high temps all the way througuh or you'll get fusils and lots of yeast characteristic.

Manticle is also right about the amount of characteristic and what type of characteristics that are temp dependant is a subjective thing and your own preferance comes into play somewhat. if you like bubblegum then ferment higher etc. its a bit of playing aroung to work out what you like

 

[Nick JD]

I'm wondering what kind of temperatures the Monks use to get the fermentation to complete in 3 days.

I've had 3 day ferments, and they were not at 23C . I'd say you'd have to get pretty close to 27-30C for that kind of ferment speed.

Or the Monk in the video was lying and he and his pot belly are in trouble when the escalator reaches pearly gates...

 

[brettprevans]

I'm wondering what kind of temperatures the Monks use to get the fermentation to complete in 3 days.

I've had 3 day ferments, and they were not at 23C . I'd say you'd have to get pretty close to 27-30C for that kind of ferment speed.

Or the Monk in the video was lying and he and his pot belly are in trouble when the escalator reaches pearly gates...

interesting. Brew like a monk certainly states longer fermentation times than that for all of the beers. I havent watched the youtube video yet.

3 day ferment doesnt really sounds inline with the monk philosophy. then again given that there arent too many monks that actually do the brewing themselves maybe he misunderstood. maybe he was referring to a 3 day secondary fermentation (ie post lagering).

 

[hazard]

I brewed at about 24 with the wy 1214 (supposedly chimay strain) and got a lot of banana and fusel alcohols. However I also added too much candi sugar in and added it all at once rather than incrementally.

A more recent dubbel using 3787 at 20 -22 seems to be coming out much better (less candi, added in stages after primary).

I'd suggest brewing the first one in temp regions you're used to and ramping up the next one if you think it needs more esters.

Which Chimay are we talking about here? Red, white or blue? I've only drunk Blue, and I've tasted lots of malt, and sweetness from the dark candi sugar but NO bananas or other esters, and NO fusel alcohols. I would think that this indicates a lower ferm temperature rather than a higher. White ot red though, can't comment.

 

[dans6401]

Which Chimay are we talking about here? Red, white or blue?

Brew like a monk states for the red-
Primary Fermentation
Pitched at 20
rises to 27-28 for 4 days
Secondary Fermentation
32 for 3 days.
Another point of interest is that they stopped using candy sugar (syrup) about 40 years ago..and..sugar amounts to less than 5% of fermentables.
I guess with regards to temperature the Chimay yeast is a bit unique.
"Father Theodore selected the yeast strain with temperature in mind."
For comparision a quick look at Rochefort 10 says-
Primary Fermentation
Pitched a 20
Allowed to rise to 23 for 7 days
Secondary Fermentation
3 days at 8.

 

[manticle]

Which Chimay are we talking about here? Red, white or blue? I've only drunk Blue, and I've tasted lots of malt, and sweetness from the dark candi sugar but NO bananas or other esters, and NO fusel alcohols. I would think that this indicates a lower ferm temperature rather than a higher. White ot red though, can't comment.

My attempt was a chimay white clone but the commercial version contains neither banana nor fusels. It was entirely my bad fermentation practice of throwing in candi sugar after primary but overusing it (it was difficult to break up but I had over a kilo where the recipe called for 600g) and I should have added it in 1/3 or so at a time.

I'll be brewing it again with some better practices although personally I'll be leaving the temps lower and seeing what comes of that.

 

[dans6401]

The wyeast 1214 is supposed to be from the Chimay strain but they recommend a brewing temp of 20 - 24, which is a bit confusing.

 

[Nick JD]

I'm off to Dan Murphys to buy the world's most expensive stubbie to steal the yeast.

Does stealing from Monks send one to hell?

BTW - I was most impressed that the Monks use the cash from the beer to help people from Zambia, Sudan ...and Wales :huh: .

 

[goomboogo]

The wyeast 1214 is supposed to be from the Chimay strain but they recommend a brewing temp of 20 - 24, which is a bit confusing.

What type of beer did you make and what particular characteristcs were you hoping for from the yeast? I brewed a Belgian Pale with the 1214 back in January. I wanted the esters to be present but restrained. I brewed at 20c for 8 days, then raised to 22c to get the last 2 gravity points out of it. At 20c the esters are still prominent without being over the top. I have brewed at higher temps with this yeast (25-28c) and the esters become very prominent. But as others have stated, it depends on the schedule, at what stage in fermentation you ramp the temp.

I know you're not using the wyeast 1214 but if your source is correct then we are talking about the same strain. What method did you use for reculturing from the bottle and did you have any issues with lag time?

 

[dans6401]

Trying for a strong Belgian style. Something like Chimay blue.
Have done a similar brew before with the chimay recultured yeast, but kept temps at around 20 degrees. It was a long fermentation, but the resulting beer was one of the best i've done. Not too sure what profiles i'm trying to achieve. Sort of new to this, so it's kind of experiment and see. Just thought i'd research, and try to simulate the original methods best i can.
As for reculturing, i used dregs of 2 stubbies of blue (only one last time) and stepped it up slowly but surely over about a week on a stir plate. Ended up with a 1.5 litre starter with a nice krausen on top. So the lag time wasn't to long. Not sure how many hours, but pitched at night, going in the morning.

 

[Nick JD]

Trying for a strong Belgian style. Something like Chimay blue.
Have done a similar brew before with the chimay recultured yeast, but kept temps at around 20 degrees. It was a long fermentation, but the resulting beer was one of the best i've done. Not too sure what profiles i'm trying to achieve. Sort of new to this, so it's kind of experiment and see. Just thought i'd research, and try to simulate the original methods best i can.
As for reculturing, i used dregs of 2 stubbies of blue (only one last time) and stepped it up slowly but surely over about a week on a stir plate. Ended up with a 1.5 litre starter with a nice krausen on top. So the lag time wasn't to long. Not sure how many hours, but pitched at night, going in the morning.

Is the yeast strain the same for red, white and blue? Am I better off reculturing from the lowest alcohol beer?

 

[Stuster]

A couple of thoughts on the fermentation temperatures given in BLaM compared to those you are using. First, how are they measuring the temp and how are you - they are probably measuring in the liquid with a thermowell. If you measure externally you'll need to account for that. Also, I heard on one of the Brewing Network shows recently that there is suppression of ester formation in large scale brewing production. The depth of the fermenter and so the higher pressure on the yeast mean fewer esters are produced. So potentially to match the esters they produce you may have to aim for a lower temp than they are using. Worth trying a few different temps and see what works best for your system.

Nick, yes, it should be the same yeast and best to go for the lower alcohol beer as that should have the least damaged yeast (depending on travel time, treatment etc).