Changing flavour profile with difference sugars

[trustyrusty]

Hi I was just reading a few recipes and they also used (along with added malt extract and LDM) brown sugar or raw, treacle, honey etc

I would have assumed that any type of sugar would be turned in alcohol in the fermenter but I guess some parts the sugars may not

be fermentable so maybe they would effect the flavour.

I used 300 grams of brown sugar in dark ale and it seemed to be sweeter but I also used a new yeast so I am not sure if the that was

the reason it was sweeter.

A few examples below ..



>>> 1 can Coopers Draught Ale

250g Light Dry Malt Extract

250g Dextrose


>>>> 1can Tooheys Real Ale

800g Dextrose

200g White Sugar

250g Dry Corn Syrup


>>>>>>>>> 1 can Coopers Draught

500g Light Dry Malt Extract

250g Dextrose

250g Brown/Black Sugar

250g Golden Syrup

250g Dry Corn Syrup

400g Raw Sugar


Does anyone have experience with using additional sugars..

thanks

 

[Jack of all biers]

Generally, the theory goes that the darker the sugar the more unfermentables there are in it. Proteins etc in raw sugar for example. Caramel is the common flavour you might find in darker sugars such a golden syrup or darker candi syrups. I think unless you caramelize the sugar or add a lot, you may not notice it other than the thinning effect sugars have on a brew.

I recently made my first batch of invert sugar using raw sugar and adding some molasses for colour and a liquorice flavour. I have not yet used it in a brew so cant advise of the noticability of the flavours, but expect they will subtly be there. I heated it for a long time to caramelize the sugars though.

Dextrose, white sugar, fructose or any such basic sugars will not add flavours to the beer, but unless sucrose is inverted, you may detect cidery notes. Honey will add subtle notes like the dark sugars, but you want to select a honey that has a strong flavour and one that you like.

 

[trustyrusty]

you may not notice it other than the thinning effect sugars have on a brew.

Thanks -

Are meaning the taste or the viscosity? Or both...?


I was thinking of caramelizing - let us know how yours goes...

cheers

 

[Rocker1986]

Both really. 'Simple' sugars like dextrose/table sugar etc. pretty much completely ferment out, leaving a thinner bodied beer, and a lesser malt flavour since they're taking the place of some of the malt. Occasionally I'll use them in small amounts to dry a beer out a little but never over about 200-300g in a standard batch.

 

[TimT]

I generally find them to be more fermentable than wort so they tend to make the brew drier.

Be careful when buying molasses as some of the varieties you find the store have been sulfated, and after fermentation they will leave an unpleasant sulfur odour.

The ones without sulfur will usually say.

Honey of course is a readily available natural sugar; a bit more problematic to ferment than syrup, brown sugar, etc, but I generally find it has very high fermentability as well and will contribute to make a brew drier.

If you shop about a bit you can find some interesting sugars: eg, some Indian shops have jaggery, a kind of Asian/African sugar. Good organic stores sometimes have panela - a kind of unrefined cane sugar, a bit like brown sugar. All good stuff.

 

[Rocker1986]

All sugar is natural.

 

[trustyrusty]

I did try maple syrup once but after I had added I read the bottle more carefully 'maple flavoured syrup' or something - it was horrible. All I could taste was this false maple syrup flavour - it become much stronger than the original. Dumped it.... So be careful of reading the bottle if you are going to add a different type of sugar.

 

[TimT]

I do wonder if the sugar is not only easy to ferment on its own, but somehow helps the yeast along in its job of fermenting the wort. I kind of suspect it does, maybe if there are more simple sugars in the wort it's easier for the yeast to keep working, whereas if it's all complex sugars the yeast will tend to go dormant early on.

The easiest way to make a homebrew obviously is just by dissolving sugar in water and adding yeast. But I find sugars of great use in all grain brewing too - they can really add to the flavour and richness of the wort.

 

[Rocker1986]

There is a school of thought that if there are too many simple sugars in the brew then the yeast go for them first and then kind of slacken off when it comes to the more complex malt sugars.

In any case, I've been brewing AG for about 3 and a half years and rarely if ever added any sugar/dextrose to the wort, and not had any problems with yeast stalling too early.

 

[TimT]

Again I suppose it depends.... one old trick for nudging a yeast to ferment out to higher and higher gravities is by gradually feeding it sugar throughout fermentation, so you reward the yeast that *doesn't* go dormant with more sugar hits. Then again adding honey late in fermentation is a trick to get more honey flavours and smells in your brew. "Everything depends on everything else" - Keynes.

 

[trustyrusty]

BTW - anyone tried palm sugar? Is that any different to anything?

 

[TimT]

Not me. Sounds fun!

 

[dannymars]

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2007/12/11-differnet-sugars-1-great-tasting.html

 

[trustyrusty]

Thanks Danny that might be what I was talking about...

 

[TimT]

I have read - in Mosher's Radical Fermentation, I believe - that the less refined a sugar is the better it is for a brew as it tends to leave more character behind in the beer. (This seems in keeping with Jack of all Bier's observation that the darker the sugars are the more unfermentables it contains). So stuff like molasses, panela, etc, is quite good. The most commonly available sugar is highly refined - ie, white cane sugar. So it probably is best to go for the stranger, less readily available sugars - panela, jaggery, etc.

Another thought - and this isn't always applicable to beer as it is mostly drunk while fresh - but as experience fermenting sugars for country wines and meads demonstrates, the results change dramatically over time. The cidery twang and the fusel taste that are noted in the link above to the Mad Fermentationist blog tend to be common in fermented sugars in the first few weeks and months. Given time, many of these will break down, and the drink will have a more rounded and pleasantly complex flavour. You observe this in beers too - a good aged barleywine can have characteristics quite similar to a mead.

 

[Jack of all biers]

Thanks -

Are meaning the taste or the viscosity? Or both...?


I was thinking of caramelizing - let us know how yours goes...

cheers

Yes, what Rocker and TimT said is correct re sugars drying the flavour and thining body.

If you want to make some of the invert sugars referred to in Dannymars link (I take it your reference to caramelizing means you'd be interested in inverting the sugars?) then check out this thread http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/89537-home-made-candy-sugar/page-4 and have a look at the info as it is very informative. Making the sugars invert is very easy and I did it on a whim after reading these two web sites http://www.unholymess.com/blog/beer-brewing-info/making-brewers-invert and http://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=12754

I got up from the computer went to the kitchen cupboard grabbed out some cream of tartar, raw sugar, demerara sugar, water and molases, mixed, heated in a pot to the advised temps (held between 125-135C) for a couple of hours and it was done. As simple as that. I could see throughout the process that there was a froth of proteins that formed on the top of the bubbling sugars. I didn't realise at the time that this is a helpful factor in the process, but since researching some more I can see why Half cat (above link) states that only dark sugars should be used to make Invert sugars for British ales.

One can use any sucrose based sugar really (some use dextrose too although it doesn't need inverting like sucrose). The advantage of inverting the sucrose is that the yeast don't have to produce invertase to break the sucrose into fructose and glucose which decreases stress on the yeast and prevents the typical flavours. Once inverted you can caramelize by experimenting with time and heat (or other methods in the first thread link above) to create more flavours that hopefully will come through in the finished beer.

I have read - in Mosher's Radical Fermentation, I believe - that the less refined a sugar is the better it is for a brew as it tends to leave more character behind in the beer. (This seems in keeping with Jack of all Bier's observation that the darker the sugars are the more unfermentables it contains). So stuff like molasses, panela, etc, is quite good. The most commonly available sugar is highly refined - ie, white cane sugar. So it probably is best to go for the stranger, less readily available sugars - panela, jaggery, etc.

Another thought - and this isn't always applicable to beer as it is mostly drunk while fresh - but as experience fermenting sugars for country wines and meads demonstrates, the results change dramatically over time. The cidery twang and the fusel taste that are noted in the link above to the Mad Fermentationist blog tend to be common in fermented sugars in the first few weeks and months. Given time, many of these will break down, and the drink will have a more rounded and pleasantly complex flavour. You observe this in beers too - a good aged barleywine can have characteristics quite similar to a mead.

Yes the less refined the sugar, the more other gunk there is in it (natural gunk so it's good for us). Definition of refining is taking out impurities, so in the case of white sugar, it's getting it down to sucrose only (I know you know this, sorry). Back to the natural gunk. It's made up of molasses (mostly made of proteins, minerals and complex sugars) and other particulates and the quantity depends on the type of dark sugar and the manufacturers processes. Raw cane sugar yields up to 70% white sugar (sucrose). Normally the brown sugars we buy contain anywhere between 4 - 12% molasses (minerals, proteins, other particulates). The proteins in the molasses are helpful when making invert sugar. The proteins assist with the maillard reactions to create meloidens and these add those complex fruit flavours etc that are referred to in the taste test Dannymars linked above.
I agree to the aging process rounding out the not so pleasant flavours. Many a great beer needs some maturing before it is at its best. Good point.

EDIT - Of course I'm talking about cane sugar in the above. Palm sugar, beet sugar etc would all be similar (but different h34r: )