Carlton Draught Grain Bill?

[bradsbrew]

Thirsty I would have thought there would be a %age of wheat in there too? Or is the the malt an actual blend of different malts?



Cheers

 

[iralosavic]

Mmm good question. There is certainly 5-10% wheat in a lot of the Aussie lager recipes on the DB.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

no wheat

 

[kirem]

now, all that will bet you "closer" to CD - but you still wont get exactly there because you arent a big production brewery, and you haven't go the propriatery yeast etc etc - and if you cant nail it.... then you might as well go for better.

Hey TB, hope the new owners are treating you well. I jumped ship about 6 months ago when they took our beer away from us.

I recall some discussion that 2112 Californian lager at higher fermentation temperatures has similar characteristics to the CUB strain? Care to comment further?

 

[HoppingMad]

Curious on this one too.

Rumour was that Fosters supplied Carlsberg with their yeast after their brewery got bombed around WW2. So their proprietary strain is just like that but modified.
Closest Carlsberg strain is Wyeast 2124 Carlsberg. But rumours were that Wyeast 2042 Danish Lager fermented high got close - at least on VB clones anyhow.

It was mentioned on this forum many years back (fermenting Danish Lager high for CUB clones). Happy to be corrected as all hearsay.

Hopper.

 

[Nick JD]

I reckon WY2278 makes a perfect Aussie Lager yeast at 14C.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

i find that i get "carlton" notes out of 2124 if its fermented above its range. VB especially is really quite fruity, and so is 2124 (34/70 dried and I expect there is an equivalent whitelabs) when its fermented in pseudo ale mode.

I suspect that the cal common yeast is probably somewhere adjacent - retains lager like characteristics at higher temps, so its more or less what the CUB yeasts are.. lager yeasts that dont go completely off tap when pushed a bit higher and faster.

If I'm really looking for a CUB type clone, I'll use the 34/70 dried - but I certainly dont insist its the only or even the best option, just the one thats worked for me. Mind you - In general I would agree with Nick and just use a nice lager yeast at proper lager temps to make a nice Aussie lager, rather than trying to emulate a commercial beer. Fortunately for me Wyeast 2124 is my lager yeast of choice anyway.

 

[MHB]

Was mining the old posts for some information on Extra Dry and read a post by Randal the Enamel Animal, his comments on the effect of unhoped wort on the flavours produced by the yeast brought this thread back to mind. I realise that in Extra Dry with the use of Tetra if there is any cross contamination with hoped wort it will skunk in clear bottles; and that that isnt why CUB use Hop Extract. On my last visit some years back, the flow diagram showed the extract being added post lagering.
What if any impact would fermenting the wort unhoped have, if any? Not something I have investigated too deeply but be interesting to know how much it contributes to the mega brewers characteristic flavour.
MHB

 

[bum]

I am far from a scientific brewer so the following is all "gut feeling" (and I should warn you my guts have shit for brains) but fermentation strips hop character and, I've read it said, IBU. If the effect of this change can swing wildly with otherwise insignificant changes in fermentation between batches (supposition on my part) then it would greatly increase repeatability to add these characteristics afterwards - especially in a beer that is already light on for such character.

Again, basically just thinking aloud.

 

[Nick JD]

I am far from a scientific brewer so the following is all "gut feeling" (and I should warn you my guts have shit for brains) but fermentation strips hop character and, I've read it said, IBU. If the effect of this change can swing wildly with otherwise insignificant changes in fermentation between batches (supposition on my part) then it would greatly increase repeatability to add these characteristics afterwards - especially in a beer that is already light on for such character.

Again, basically just thinking aloud.

Makes good sense, bum. If I could get past the fact that bums thinking out loud = farts it would be even more reassuring.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

i think mhb is thinking more along the lines of what effect lack/presence of hops will have on the yeast, rather than visa versa.

but you guys are right to a certain extent anyway - the later in the orocess you can add anything and the more "pure" the addition, the more repeatable the process. and thats a part of it, but mainly its about efficiency. you throw hops in the kettle and you are lucky to get 30% utilization, then you lose some in the fermenter and more in the filter. You shove extract that gets 90+% utilization out of its hops into the bright beer stream on the other hand? now you're getting 90% of the alpha acids you paid for into your beer instead of less than 30% - and your plant doesn't have to be designed to cope with large amounts of hops, you dont have to pay for disposal of spent hops, you dont have to pay for storage of hops, your workers never go off on compo from lifting heavy bags of hop pellets, your re-pitched yeast is cleaner, your centrifuges have a lighter load..... blah blah etc etc

MHB - i dont think that it affects the fermentation performance in a deeply significant way. we use the same strains of yeast, under the same sorts of fermentation conditions, for the same sorts of results - with both hopped and unhopped worts. But its bound to have some sort of influence - if i remember i'll ask one of the yeast gurus at work and see what they say.

TB

 

[bum]

i think mhb is thinking more along the lines of what effect lack/presence of hops will have on the yeast, rather than visa versa.

Yeah, I saw that but, in my perpetually sleep deprived state of late, I didn't adequately explain that I suspected that there was no real effect or else they'd be there and went on to guess why I thought they weren't. Ended up being largely wrong but you get that on the big jobs.

but you guys are right to a certain extent anyway - the later in the orocess you can add anything and the more "pure" the addition, the more repeatable the process. and thats a part of it, but mainly its about efficiency. you throw hops in the kettle and you are lucky to get 30% utilization, then you lose some in the fermenter and more in the filter. You shove extract that gets 90+% utilization out of its hops into the bright beer stream on the other hand? now you're getting 90% of the alpha acids you paid for into your beer instead of less than 30% - and your plant doesn't have to be designed to cope with large amounts of hops, you dont have to pay for disposal of spent hops, you dont have to pay for storage of hops, your workers never go off on compo from lifting heavy bags of hop pellets, your re-pitched yeast is cleaner, your centrifuges have a lighter load..... blah blah etc etc

Yeah, that makes immediate sense. Kinda annoyed it didn't occur to me. Here I was thinking Tooheys actually cared about the product! Kinda embarrassing really.

 

[thebigwilk]

Bringing this old thread back to life its an interesting read. I have just filtered and kegged my version of an Aussie Carlton Draught ish style of mega swill. One of the biggest factors was the ferment temps and the yeast, I have tried a few different yeast at the normal lager temps they all seemed to be a bit bland and missing that brightness type flavour. this latest brew I used wyeast 2124 pitched at 15c let it raise to 17c and held there for a week then raised it to 19c for another week, taking sample tastings out of the fermenter the familiar Aussie flavour was definitely there. Now its kegged its far from a clone but its on the right track, even to the point of giving the missus a taste to which she said" its got that Carlton Draught sort of taste about it". The late hop addition could be a little less but its bloody tasty and im pretty happy with it.

Australian Premium Lager
Recipe Specs
----------------
Batch Size (L): 27.0
Total Grain (kg): 5.430
Total Hops (g): 36.00
Original Gravity (OG): 1.049 (°P): 12.1
Final Gravity (FG): 1.010 (°P): 2.6
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 5.07 %
Colour (SRM): 6.0 (EBC): 11.8
Bitterness (IBU): 25.7 (Average)
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 76
Boil Time (Minutes): 90
Grain Bill
----------------
5.100 kg Pilsner (93.92%)
0.300 kg Dry Malt Extract - Light (5.52%) Used for the sarter
0.030 kg Roasted Barley (0.55%)
Hop Bill
----------------
18.0 g Pride of Ringwood Pellet (10% Alpha) @ 90 Minutes (First Wort) (0.7 g/L)
18.0 g Hallertau Mittlefrueh Pellet (6.3% Alpha) @ 13 Minutes (Boil) (0.7 g/L)
Misc Bill
----------------
7.0 g Calcium Chloride @ 0 Minutes (Mash)
3.0 g Epsom Salt (MgSO4) @ 0 Minutes (Mash)
2.5 g Lactic Acid @ 0 Minutes (Mash)
Mash Ph 5.47
Single step Infusion at 63°C for 90 Minutes.
Fermented at 17°C with Wyeast 2124 - Bohemian Lager

 

[Bribie G]

I've brewed a couple of Cascade Premium Lager attempts more or less along the lines suggested by Thirsty Boy, plus some information gleaned by a member from Cascade itself. It's in the Fosters Family nowadays so not unlike CD and very simlar to your recipe.

One suggestion from TB was to use Danish Lager yeast, pitch at 13 and finish after about 10 days at 19. Then drop to lagering temp over 10 days, finishing at -1 degrees.

The mash was interesting, he suggested a low mash at 63 for two hours then a short mashout.

I used some sugar, unfortunately I lost all my BrewMate recipes when my computer died last month but I think it was around 15% of gravity. POR plus a Hersbrucker plug. The brew came second in the Pale lagers in the Nats.

How about a brew-off this year ? :beerbang:

The roasted barley is interesting, apparently that's what gives Reschs Draught its deeper colour. Also Aussie RB is not as black as the UK variety, as I found out when I used some Joe White RB in a stout. I remember TB mentioning RB used commercially as being "not as dark as the stuff we home brewers use", so I guess JW RB is made for the commercials for colour adjustment in some of their beers.

I may be misquoting TB as he's been off the forum for a couple of years now and my memory is getting foggy, but I always paid attention to the bits he eked out about what went on at CUB B)

 

[thebigwilk]

Hey Bribie G good to hear from someone who has put a bit of time and effort in to this beer style. I was wondering how you treated your brewing water? I have been trying to get the PH down low for this style, my personal opinion is this helps bring out a sort of brightness to the flavour if you now what I mean its a hard one to describe.

 

[pat86]

...

One suggestion from TB was to use Danish Lager yeast, pitch at 13 and finish after about 10 days at 19. Then drop to lagering temp over 10 days, finishing at -1 degrees.

The mash was interesting, he suggested a low mash at 63 for two hours then a short mashout.
...

Hey Bribie, quick Q regarding the fermentation and lagering:

When you say "drop to lagering temp over 10 days..." do you mean a gradual reduction of say 2C per day until you go from 19 to -1C?

Why do you go all the way to -1C? What extra effect would this have, that the 9 days of lagering before hand wouldn't?

*When I CC ales to clear them up (usually 3-7 days and between 0 - 4C), would I see any benefit of going to -1C?

If that gradual temp reduction is what you are talking about, what is the main difference between doing those steps and just switching my STC straight from 19C to -1C?

 

[Bribie G]

For the water I add sulphates, apparently traditional for Aussie beers, mostly epsom salts and a bit of gypsum.

I may have got the lagering wrong, I was talking to a brewer at a micro a couple of weeks ago and he suggested not dropping immediately to -1 but to run it down a few degrees a day to about 4 degrees so that the yeast is still working very slowly to clean up the brew, then give it a week at -1. Next time I'll drop it like that and see if it comes out cleaner. I reckon if I drop it straight from 19 to -1 the yeast isn't going to do anything but die off.

Said brewer also said to pitch low and then raise the temperature, so in the case of an Aussie I'd pitch at below 10 and let it creep up to 13 over a couple of days and time my fermentation from then.

I believe that for ales, the likes of Murrays do theirs at -1 for a week or so to clear out the brew, drop all the polyphenols whatever. This doesn't freeze the beer as the alcohol acts as an anti freeze.

 

[DUANNE]

The slow drop is to prevent any off flavours. If you just jack the thermostat down to -1 it can shock the yeast and they will spit out some undesirable flavours.dropping it slowly avoids this and any remaining yeast in the beer gets a chance to keep on cleaning up after itself during the lagering process.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

JWM do a specific choc malt for Tooheys Old that is not available to the general public. I know this because I know someone who lived in Tamworth and managed to get some from the JWM malthouse there.

 

[manticle]

No idea about mega brews and I'm not the most experienced lager brewer but the best ones I have done, I have pitched cold/cool, raised temp slowly for diacetyl rest and dropped temp slowly for lagering, then cc'ed cold for a length of time.