Carafa And Carafa Special Malts

[notung]

Hi. A number of munich dunkel, bock & schwarzbier recipes call for Wey Carafa II malt. This malt appears to really boost malt aromas in your beer and of course adds colour. I have noticed that few homebrew shops carry the Carafa malts but do stock the Carafa Special varieties. I know the Specials are de-husked. Weyermann insists that the kilning is different and I notice in Beersmith that the potential SGs vary between them. Having used neither of these I wanted to ask about others' experiences. So, has anyone had experience with both? What do you think - can they be interchanged to give (basically) the same effect? I certainly don't want to order a bag of this stuff, just small amounts! Thanks everyone.

Edit: What would you substitute for German Carafa II?

 

[Pennywise]

The main difference I know off is that the Carafa Special has no husk. Never used the normal Carafa

 

[wessmith]

The Carafa Special roasted malts are indeed de-husked prior to roasting and will have a much lower astringency and a smoother flavour. You can sub these directly for Carafa and get a smoother roasted flavour profile. Sometimes however, you might want the more astringent flavour of normal roasted and in that case, the Carafa will work fine too. Carafa Special for Dunkels certainly.

Wes

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

The site sponsor living near me has it. Unfornately they aren't there at the moment, but they will reappear once the malware issue sorts itself out.

 

[Banshee]

Carafa special is the way to go for a dunkel, doppelbock. In a schwartz I wouuld possibly go plain carafa.

 

[Nick JD]

I onced used 200g of Carafa III in a 15L schwarz and it was like drinking liquid tarmac. Which is great if you're into liquid tarmac.

Use with caution - if you like turkish coffee, you'll love the carafas.

 

[notung]

Wessmith & Banshee, thanks for the substitution tips.

 

[funkydiscochicken]

In my first (and only) AG schwartz, I used proportianally more Carafra I rather than a Carafra III Special as that's what my LHBS had in stock. I think it tastes a little more roasted and malty than I would have prefered, but I have had only praise so far.

 

[Fourstar]

I onced used 200g of Carafa III in a 15L schwarz and it was like drinking liquid tarmac. Which is great if you're into liquid tarmac.

Use with caution - if you like turkish coffee, you'll love the carafas.

I find the carafa specials to be the smoothest and mildest gram for gram, degree L to their 'chocolate' counterparts. I dont know how you where getting 'liquid tarmac' with 200g of carafa. I have made a dry stout (7%) with carafa II in the place of RB and found the palate to be ultra mild but still with mild coffee and dusty cocoa notes. nothing astringent or bitter about it.

I have also used Carafa III (unknown to me) in several beers thinking it was II but Dave at greensy only had III in stock (usually stocked both). i always assumed it was II and plainly asked for carafa. So yes, it shouldnt taste like muddy water if its used appropriately in the right grainbills.

 

[reviled]

The best dunkel I ever brewed was just 5kg of Munich and 200gms of Carafa I

Got an awesome smooth coffee note with hints of cocoa dusts, it was quite prominent but I wouldnt say astringent...

With the carafa specials I dont get much, if any coffee flavour, more just subtle roast and cocoa..

But I say try em all for yourself, everyone gets different things out of different ingredients!

 

[drsmurto]

Where in Australia can you buy Carafa? I've only ever seen Carafa Special.

 

[razz]

Beats me Dr S. Interestingly enough Weyerman only list the organic Carafa as de-husked but not the run of the mill Carafa. All Carafa spec are listed as de-husked.

 

[Nick JD]

I find the carafa specials to be the smoothest and mildest gram for gram, degree L to their 'chocolate' counterparts. I dont know how you where getting 'liquid tarmac' with 200g of carafa. I have made a dry stout (7%) with carafa II in the place of RB and found the palate to be ultra mild but still with mild coffee and dusty cocoa notes. nothing astringent or bitter about it.

I have also used Carafa III (unknown to me) in several beers thinking it was II but Dave at greensy only had III in stock (usually stocked both). i always assumed it was II and plainly asked for carafa. So yes, it shouldnt taste like muddy water if its used appropriately in the right grainbills.

By liquid tarmac I wasn't describing "astringent" - unless you've actually tried tarmac and can comment on experience :huh: ... but you know that smell when you walk past the crew re-surfacing the road (with the big propane burners melting the tar)? Tasted like that. Not astringent, just "hot tar". Like licking a piece of charcoal. Note that it was 200g in a 15L batch - too much for III, but as always YMMV.

 

[Fourstar]

By liquid tarmac I wasn't describing "astringent" - unless you've actually tried tarmac and can comment on experience :huh: ... but you know that smell when you walk past the crew re-surfacing the road (with the big propane burners melting the tar)? Tasted like that. Not astringent, just "hot tar". Like licking a piece of charcoal. Note that it was 200g in a 15L batch - too much for III, but as always YMMV.

I'd hate to be the one break it to ya mate but that isnt a characteristic of this malt. Moreso of a yeast handling/fermentation fault.

Burnt rubber specifically, medicinal phenolic charcters or smokyness* (yeast derived) is an issue with infection or yeast autolysis, not carafa malts.

I'd think about brewing again with this malt to get a true representation of its profile.

*carafa III does have some ashy notes to it but nothing like you get from a malt like black patent, its alot milder.

 

[Nick JD]

I'd hate to be the one break it to ya mate but that isnt a characteristic of this malt. Moreso of a yeast handling/fermentation fault.

Burnt rubber specifically, medicinal phenolic charcters or smokyness* (yeast derived) is an issue with infection or yeast autolysis, not carafa malts.

I'd think about brewing again with this malt to get a true representation of its profile.

*carafa III does have some ashy notes to it but nothing like you get from a malt like black patent, its alot milder.

Not burnt rubber at all - more like hot tarmac. Some would describe it as a pleasing taste - I get the same, but much less when I drink Guinness. I guess it's my description of "grainy sharpness" and "burnt tones" or as in some stouts a "slightly burnt grain, burnt currant or tarry character".

 

[Lecterfan]

OK, so I've been a good boy, done a search first to find an existing thread and am bringing it to life again rather than starting a new one.

The question I have is that I made a partial mash Schwarzbier (no idea how true to type it is, I got the recipe from one of the site sponsors website) as I found a thread on AHB saying to abandon the idea of a tooheys old style beer and make a dark lager. I used wyeast 2206 and at 10 weeks in the bottle is VERY close to what my palate is after.

The problem is that my LHBS has pretty limited grains, no Carafa of ANY sort (that is a reference to carafa spec vs, carafa earlier in the thread)....but other schwarzbier recipes in the recipe DB suggest various combos of choc and roast grains.

I honestly don't think they will work as replacement, but I would appreciate opinions.

The orginal brew I did was:
1.5kg LDME
2kg pilsner
250gms carafa
500 gms light munich
250 gms carapils

25 gms of Northern Brewer (%9.6 AAU) for 60 mins

(no flavour/aroma hops - it actually works very well for a dryish malty finish in this instance)

Wyeast Bav Lager 2206.

I would like to replicate that this weekend in AG fashion but I don't have access to Carafa. Should I just hold off or can I reasonably substitute a bit of choc and roast? Or maybe some crystal instead of the carapils or something?

Thanks in advance...

 

[Ross]

Lecter,

wait till you can source the Carafa.

cheers Ross

 

[Lecterfan]

Thanks Ross, in my heart of hearts I suspected that would be the answer...(at least for the [articular style I am aiming for).