sp0rk
Mayor of Pooptown
I made mine using a YouTube instructional, turned out great
Candy Sugar.
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Do you mean the YouTube instructional vids, or the Candisyrup.com recipes?panzerd18 said:
I have made clear candi syrup - and burnt candi syrup - in the past and it was good, but as a few people here say you will struggle to get the depth of flavour of the commercial dark syrups.
Apparently tartaric acid will give more if a honey flavour, while citric will give a more... Citric... Flavour.
I don't think there is much difference between beet and cane sugar, but there probably is with date sugar.
[SIZE=medium]I can’t recall a subject that causes as much angst and confusion as does Candi Sugar/Syrup.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Belgians are one of my favourite families of beers so having done quite a bit of research on the subject this is where I am at.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]They are different, I mean Cane and Beet sugar (and Palm sugar to) I know they both contain a lot of Sucrose and it’s tempting to think Sugar is Sugar but they aren’t just “Sugar” one point that is very telling is that you can’t make Rum out of beet sugar, it just tastes wrong, which indicates that at some level there is a difference. I have noticed this in brewing to; exactly the same recipe using plain white sugar and clear Belgian Candi tastes different.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]I will say that it’s less obvious with paler sugars and more noticeable as you get darker. If I were brewing a Pale or a Tripple for just drinking I would be tempted to just use white sugar, if I was thinking about entering it in a comp I would definitely use the Belgian Candi, there is enough difference for it to matter. In a Double or a Quad there is no way I would consider using anything except the genuine Belgian Candi and in all cases use the Belgian malts that are available.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]The idea that you can make Belgian Candi out of white sugar is complete rubbish; at best you can make Candy and if you add some DAP as an ammonium source you can get some milliard reactions that will darken it.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]The sugar I keep for my coffee is Demerara, (if you aren’t familiar with it spend a couple of dollars and have a taste and smell) imagine we dissolved it up filtered it through activated charcoal and removed all the flavours and aromas other than the Sucrose then recrystallised it back to white sugar. Do you really think that heating it on a stove will add back what was taken out?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Whether you use Syrup or Rock is I think fairly irrelevant, a bit like the difference between LME and DME, its just 20% water. That said there are a few different manufacturers and they will all make different tasting products. Just like there are four or five makers of UK pale malt that we can choose from, their product are going to be slightly different and we will all have our personal favourites.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Belgian beers especially the big ones tend to be fairly expensive to make, don’t begrudge the few extra dollars to make them taste better.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Mark[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Belgians are one of my favourite families of beers so having done quite a bit of research on the subject this is where I am at.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]They are different, I mean Cane and Beet sugar (and Palm sugar to) I know they both contain a lot of Sucrose and it’s tempting to think Sugar is Sugar but they aren’t just “Sugar” one point that is very telling is that you can’t make Rum out of beet sugar, it just tastes wrong, which indicates that at some level there is a difference. I have noticed this in brewing to; exactly the same recipe using plain white sugar and clear Belgian Candi tastes different.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]I will say that it’s less obvious with paler sugars and more noticeable as you get darker. If I were brewing a Pale or a Tripple for just drinking I would be tempted to just use white sugar, if I was thinking about entering it in a comp I would definitely use the Belgian Candi, there is enough difference for it to matter. In a Double or a Quad there is no way I would consider using anything except the genuine Belgian Candi and in all cases use the Belgian malts that are available.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]The idea that you can make Belgian Candi out of white sugar is complete rubbish; at best you can make Candy and if you add some DAP as an ammonium source you can get some milliard reactions that will darken it.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]The sugar I keep for my coffee is Demerara, (if you aren’t familiar with it spend a couple of dollars and have a taste and smell) imagine we dissolved it up filtered it through activated charcoal and removed all the flavours and aromas other than the Sucrose then recrystallised it back to white sugar. Do you really think that heating it on a stove will add back what was taken out?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Whether you use Syrup or Rock is I think fairly irrelevant, a bit like the difference between LME and DME, its just 20% water. That said there are a few different manufacturers and they will all make different tasting products. Just like there are four or five makers of UK pale malt that we can choose from, their product are going to be slightly different and we will all have our personal favourites.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Belgian beers especially the big ones tend to be fairly expensive to make, don’t begrudge the few extra dollars to make them taste better.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Mark[/SIZE]
manticle
Standing up for the Aussie Bottler
I've made it via a few different methods and have never got anywhere close to the commercially available syrups which are worth the coin to me. I wouldn't use anything else for a dark strong or dubbel now.
Paler stuff, I tend to use just dex, as I believe some of the Belgian breweries like Moortgaat do but at some point I'd like to have a crack at a Westmalle tripel and will give the clear syrup a whirl.
Paler stuff, I tend to use just dex, as I believe some of the Belgian breweries like Moortgaat do but at some point I'd like to have a crack at a Westmalle tripel and will give the clear syrup a whirl.
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Without having dabbled even a fraction of what yourself or Mark has, that's pretty well what I think too.manticle said:
My comparison of cane and beet is that there is more misinformation out there than quantifiable analysis - so I am happy to go either way and defer to other peoples' experience.
Speaking of misinformation, I'm sure that there are a lot if ways to make (generic) candi syrup/sugar that are very different to what you would call a good Belgian product. I have no doubt that even once you make it "the right way" that the last 20% is very much an art and very very difficult to do consistently.
We are all homebrewers though, and do like to experiment. I am sure that we could make a clear candi syrup that would be a great (cheap) substitute that you could use with dextrose and pils to make a great golden or trippel. But yeah agree that the dark ones are better value to just buy.
I think I will buy a bunch of D180/90/45 from Candisyrup.com, some brown cassonade from www.thebelgianshop.com and make my own invert /light /clear.
manticle
Standing up for the Aussie Bottler
I'd love to know the secret- making your own is fun but for me the knowhow is currently on the same level as malt. I know how to make great beer but I'll let the maltster germinate and kiln the barley for me.
Hello all,
I made a Triple last year, which turned out great. I made my own syrup using the recipe http://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/c/9/6/c96b0201c76bf8dd/sugarguidelines.pdf?c_id=1452346&expiration=1411908634&hwt=ad1ee491c18cb6669e5f2a67d9949c1c. You do need a good thermometer, pref a alcohol one, as the boiling sugar makes it hard for digital ones to react fast enough. I ended up with a dark amber syrup (a little darker than I really wanted), but it tasted great.
Cheers,
Andrew.
I made a Triple last year, which turned out great. I made my own syrup using the recipe http://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/c/9/6/c96b0201c76bf8dd/sugarguidelines.pdf?c_id=1452346&expiration=1411908634&hwt=ad1ee491c18cb6669e5f2a67d9949c1c. You do need a good thermometer, pref a alcohol one, as the boiling sugar makes it hard for digital ones to react fast enough. I ended up with a dark amber syrup (a little darker than I really wanted), but it tasted great.
Cheers,
Andrew.
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Well, I did some reading as I was struck by Mark's comment.
Since Maillard reactions need amino acids to occur - or at least nitrogen - I wondered what the amino acid profile of beet sugar was:
http://assbt-jsbr.org/JSBR/Vol17/JSBRVol17No2P154to164NitrogenousCompoundsinSugarbeetJuices.pdf
Stand-outs are, in descending order from highest concentratio:
Serine (typically 60-100% more than glutamic acid)
Glutamic acid
Aspartic acid
Gama-aminobutyric acid
Leucine/isoleucine
This study used individual amino acids with sugar (cooked for 1-24hrs) against control aromas to see the effects:
http://www.lsse.kyutech.ac.jp/~asiacore/japanese/topics/pdf/2008/sensory_aroma_from_maillard_reaction_of_individual_and_combination_of_amino_acids_with_glucase_in_acidic_conditions.pdf
links those amino acids to the following aromas/flavours:
Serine - fruity, fresh dates, pleasant/sweet
Glutamic acid - none, sour taste
Aspartic acid - [SIZE=13.63636302948px]fruity, fresh dates, pleasant/sweet[/SIZE]
Gama-aminobutyric acid - no information
Luecine/isoluecine - burnt, caramel-like
Cane sugar on the other hand - as shown by the this study:
http://www.sasta.co.za/wp-content/uploads/Proceedings/1990s/1996_Walford_Composition%20Of%20Cane%20Juice.pdf
Has these as the main amino acids:
[SIZE=13.63636302948px]Aspartic acid[/SIZE][SIZE=13.63636302948px] - fruity, fresh dates, pleasant/sweet[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.63636302948px]Glutamic acid[/SIZE][SIZE=13.63636302948px] - none, sour taste[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.63636302948px]Alanine[/SIZE][SIZE=13.63636302948px] - fruity (persimmon), pleasant/sweet, flowery[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.63636302948px]Valine - caramel-like, bitter taste[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.63636302948px]Aminobutyric[/SIZE][SIZE=13.63636302948px] - no information[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.63636302948px]So after refining these will possibly reduce. From those sources, it looks as though the amino acids in beet sugar are geared more towards the fruity/dates like flavours as there are more amino acids that are known for these.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.63636302948px]Interesting. So who's going to buy a kg of serine?[/SIZE]
Since Maillard reactions need amino acids to occur - or at least nitrogen - I wondered what the amino acid profile of beet sugar was:
http://assbt-jsbr.org/JSBR/Vol17/JSBRVol17No2P154to164NitrogenousCompoundsinSugarbeetJuices.pdf
Stand-outs are, in descending order from highest concentratio:
Serine (typically 60-100% more than glutamic acid)
Glutamic acid
Aspartic acid
Gama-aminobutyric acid
Leucine/isoleucine
This study used individual amino acids with sugar (cooked for 1-24hrs) against control aromas to see the effects:
http://www.lsse.kyutech.ac.jp/~asiacore/japanese/topics/pdf/2008/sensory_aroma_from_maillard_reaction_of_individual_and_combination_of_amino_acids_with_glucase_in_acidic_conditions.pdf
links those amino acids to the following aromas/flavours:
Serine - fruity, fresh dates, pleasant/sweet
Glutamic acid - none, sour taste
Aspartic acid - [SIZE=13.63636302948px]fruity, fresh dates, pleasant/sweet[/SIZE]
Gama-aminobutyric acid - no information
Luecine/isoluecine - burnt, caramel-like
Cane sugar on the other hand - as shown by the this study:
http://www.sasta.co.za/wp-content/uploads/Proceedings/1990s/1996_Walford_Composition%20Of%20Cane%20Juice.pdf
Has these as the main amino acids:
[SIZE=13.63636302948px]Aspartic acid[/SIZE][SIZE=13.63636302948px] - fruity, fresh dates, pleasant/sweet[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.63636302948px]Glutamic acid[/SIZE][SIZE=13.63636302948px] - none, sour taste[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.63636302948px]Alanine[/SIZE][SIZE=13.63636302948px] - fruity (persimmon), pleasant/sweet, flowery[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.63636302948px]Valine - caramel-like, bitter taste[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.63636302948px]Aminobutyric[/SIZE][SIZE=13.63636302948px] - no information[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.63636302948px]So after refining these will possibly reduce. From those sources, it looks as though the amino acids in beet sugar are geared more towards the fruity/dates like flavours as there are more amino acids that are known for these.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.63636302948px]Interesting. So who's going to buy a kg of serine?[/SIZE]
manticle
Standing up for the Aussie Bottler
Very interesting data and food for thought. Be great to access some beet sugar and try and replicate the commercial stuff
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So a disclaimer from the start: I'm not suggesting home-baked candi syrups would be as consistent as the commercial candi syrups or present the same variety or depth of flavours. But we are homebrewers and do like to experiment. As I said I've grabbed and will continue to grab the Candisyrup darks. I have used a generic dark syrup from a local supplier and it wasn't that flash, but I hear the D2 types are pretty good.
Unfortunately, shipping from the US makes me wince, so if I could keep this to a minimum and do the important ones - i.e. D-180, D90. If we could make something like Simplicity or a good clear, it would be nice to save on shipping.
...and there is also this for making a Rochefort 8 or 10 (apparently):
http://store.belgianshop.com/sugars/160-candico-cassonade-brune-1-kg.html
and some other sugars:
http://store.belgianshop.com/recherche?controller=search&orderby=position&orderway=desc&search_query=sugar&submit_search=Search
It seems clear though that a few principles need to be followed if you are going to make your own candi syrup:
1) Acid - tartaric, citric or a mix - can be used for clear syrup at lower temperatures, but should be neutralised with lime or sodium bicarb
2) If you are going to go darker than clear, you do not want an acidic environment.
3) If you are going to go darker than clear, you need a bunch of amino acids to get at least ballpark flavours. I guess that these can either be there naturally (beet sugar) or you might be able to add certain amino acids.
Note that the flavours in the previous post are with 14-24hr of cooking at 100°C and neutralish (~5.5) pH.
The aromas that came off with an hour of cooking and strongly acidic (pH 0.1) were as follows:
Serine - slightly burnt, pleasant/sweet
Glutamic acid - pleasant/sweet, caramel-like, burnt
Aspartic acid - pleasant/sweet, fruity (fresh dates), caramel-like
Valine - pleasant/sweet, caramel-like, burnt
Leucine/isoleucine - burnt, coffee-like, prune, caramel-like, malty
The common one there is 'burnt' - which seems to back up what a lot of other resources have said about Maillard reactions at low pH. But you can also start to see more coffee, prune, etc. flavours coming through.
Who knows. I always like a bit of science though.
Unfortunately, shipping from the US makes me wince, so if I could keep this to a minimum and do the important ones - i.e. D-180, D90. If we could make something like Simplicity or a good clear, it would be nice to save on shipping.
...and there is also this for making a Rochefort 8 or 10 (apparently):
http://store.belgianshop.com/sugars/160-candico-cassonade-brune-1-kg.html
and some other sugars:
http://store.belgianshop.com/recherche?controller=search&orderby=position&orderway=desc&search_query=sugar&submit_search=Search
It seems clear though that a few principles need to be followed if you are going to make your own candi syrup:
1) Acid - tartaric, citric or a mix - can be used for clear syrup at lower temperatures, but should be neutralised with lime or sodium bicarb
2) If you are going to go darker than clear, you do not want an acidic environment.
3) If you are going to go darker than clear, you need a bunch of amino acids to get at least ballpark flavours. I guess that these can either be there naturally (beet sugar) or you might be able to add certain amino acids.
Note that the flavours in the previous post are with 14-24hr of cooking at 100°C and neutralish (~5.5) pH.
The aromas that came off with an hour of cooking and strongly acidic (pH 0.1) were as follows:
Serine - slightly burnt, pleasant/sweet
Glutamic acid - pleasant/sweet, caramel-like, burnt
Aspartic acid - pleasant/sweet, fruity (fresh dates), caramel-like
Valine - pleasant/sweet, caramel-like, burnt
Leucine/isoleucine - burnt, coffee-like, prune, caramel-like, malty
The common one there is 'burnt' - which seems to back up what a lot of other resources have said about Maillard reactions at low pH. But you can also start to see more coffee, prune, etc. flavours coming through.
Who knows. I always like a bit of science though.
All very interesting but still not going to work well. In the processing of sugar cane juice to make white sugar everything that we want as taste and aroma compounds is removed except the sucrose which is around 99.9% pure.
to sight another example look at a Strawberry, there are some 3,000 known flavour and aroma compounds that can be found in a strawberry, just chucking in some benzyl acetate wont give you anything like a real strawberry taste. The same with the dark candi, it isn't made from white sugar (beet or otherwise) and then made dark. It hasn't had the things that make the concentrated sugar beet juice removed they are still there.
I remember touring a sugar mill between the evaporators where most of the water is removed from the juice and the crystallisers where the sugar crystals are grown there is a thick black sweet liquid syrup that tastes remarkably like Dark Candi Syrup (If anyone could get their hands on a bucket of that I for one would love to experiment). My point is that it is a remarkably rich flavour, it if full of vitamins trace elements flavours sugars (naturally) but during refining those products are all removed. Mixing the right amount of Molasses and Raw Sugar would make something similar to the syrup I am talking about, not identical because lots of changes would have happened during the crystallisation process that cant be undone.
If you are using a little clear or white sugar as appropriate in a recipe, I cant think of any benefits to bothering to "Candi" it yeast can handle sucrose just fine without our help, even if you do make candi at home you would at best be getting partial inversion.
Looking at the information above, yes you can make some flavours out of sugar, but is anyone seriously stove toping their candi for 14-24 hours, not to mention adding some rather exotic chemicals, and be very careful of 0.1 pH acid, seriously and I mean seriously dangerous. I don't want to be in the same room if you are boiling it!
Guys you cant fake it, if you want to make really good Belgian style beer, use Belgian Malt, suitable hops the right yeast and if you are using sugar use what the Belgian brewers use. Belgian beers are not something to try and make on a budget. I was shopping for beer yesterday at Warners at the bay, the top end Belgian beers were all over $10 per 330mL stubby so over $30/L, if you spent $100 on a batch (23L) that's less than 15% of retail.
Of that (guess) $100 at most $20 would be the sugar so about 30 cents a bottle saved to make inferior beer.
I took the $100 from costing a Westvleteren 12 clone and if you can buy that for less than $100/L tell me where (other than a monastery in Belgium), if I am going to invest that sort of time and effort in a beer if you think I am going to let 30cents a glass stop me from making the best beer I can you are seriously deluded.
Mark
to sight another example look at a Strawberry, there are some 3,000 known flavour and aroma compounds that can be found in a strawberry, just chucking in some benzyl acetate wont give you anything like a real strawberry taste. The same with the dark candi, it isn't made from white sugar (beet or otherwise) and then made dark. It hasn't had the things that make the concentrated sugar beet juice removed they are still there.
I remember touring a sugar mill between the evaporators where most of the water is removed from the juice and the crystallisers where the sugar crystals are grown there is a thick black sweet liquid syrup that tastes remarkably like Dark Candi Syrup (If anyone could get their hands on a bucket of that I for one would love to experiment). My point is that it is a remarkably rich flavour, it if full of vitamins trace elements flavours sugars (naturally) but during refining those products are all removed. Mixing the right amount of Molasses and Raw Sugar would make something similar to the syrup I am talking about, not identical because lots of changes would have happened during the crystallisation process that cant be undone.
If you are using a little clear or white sugar as appropriate in a recipe, I cant think of any benefits to bothering to "Candi" it yeast can handle sucrose just fine without our help, even if you do make candi at home you would at best be getting partial inversion.
Looking at the information above, yes you can make some flavours out of sugar, but is anyone seriously stove toping their candi for 14-24 hours, not to mention adding some rather exotic chemicals, and be very careful of 0.1 pH acid, seriously and I mean seriously dangerous. I don't want to be in the same room if you are boiling it!
Guys you cant fake it, if you want to make really good Belgian style beer, use Belgian Malt, suitable hops the right yeast and if you are using sugar use what the Belgian brewers use. Belgian beers are not something to try and make on a budget. I was shopping for beer yesterday at Warners at the bay, the top end Belgian beers were all over $10 per 330mL stubby so over $30/L, if you spent $100 on a batch (23L) that's less than 15% of retail.
Of that (guess) $100 at most $20 would be the sugar so about 30 cents a bottle saved to make inferior beer.
I took the $100 from costing a Westvleteren 12 clone and if you can buy that for less than $100/L tell me where (other than a monastery in Belgium), if I am going to invest that sort of time and effort in a beer if you think I am going to let 30cents a glass stop me from making the best beer I can you are seriously deluded.
Mark
sp0rk
Mayor of Pooptown
I have a mate that works at the Broadwater mill, I'll see what I can doMHB said:
