Calcium Sulphate 101

[bum]

Seems to good to be true - that you could just chuck a teaspoon in any old water with any old grains and somehow come up with the magic number.

Don't ask me to explain how it works (something to do with its conjugate base (whatever that is)) but it acts as a buffer - it essentially stops changes occuring rather than changes one thing to another. That's my very layman's understanding from when I was looking into buying it anyway.

I've used it and found effeciency improvements in smaller beers. Quality improvements? Couldn't really say as I don't usually reapeat any recipes. Having used it, I wouldn't advise anyone else to bother unless there was a specific problem they thought it might fix.

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Hmm, I have soft water too. Might give it a go. Bit off topic, but what's a good ph meter to get??

Try Hanna or Milwaukee with ATC, around $100 if you shop around.
Like this one
Nev

 

[mje1980]

Thanks guys

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I've done some experimenting with the 5.2 bufffer you can typically buy - My science wasn't something you'd put your house on statistically.... but in none of the several (benchtop sized) experiments I did (even at more than twice the reccomended dose) did the addition of 5.2 buffering salts to Melbourne tap water, actually buffer a mash to 5.2. It essentially did nothing.

Its designed to buffer mashes done in water with relatively high dissolved solids - I'm not sure it does a lot in soft water..... to be honest I'm not sure it does a lot in any sort of water really.

If you live in Melbourne - stop fretting anyway. Thank your lucky stars you dont live somewhere the water makes you work & stick in 1tspn of Cacl for malty beers, 1 tspn of CaS04 for hoppy beers, 1/2 of each for balanced beers.... and you'll be as near as damn to right. Add an extra 1/2 teaspoon in either direction if your beer would include the word "very" in its malty or hoppy description.

People who live in Perth etc.... continue to fret you poor buggers.

 

[stakka82]

Thanks tb. I've got both salts now and was waiting for an idiot proof explanation such as the one provided before jumping in.

 

[dicko]

If you live in Melbourne - stop fretting anyway. Thank your lucky stars you dont live somewhere the water makes you work & stick in 1tspn of Cacl for malty beers, 1 tspn of CaS04 for hoppy beers, 1/2 of each for balanced beers.... and you'll be as near as damn to right. Add an extra 1/2 teaspoon in either direction if your beer would include the word "very" in its malty or hoppy description.

TB, do the amounts you refer to relate to a 20 litre brew or is there an addition per litre of "soft" brewing water that you would suggest?

 

[Lurks]

I've found the EZ Water Calculator spreadsheet works a treat. It highlights the need for further acidification, if needed, after you've entered your salt additions.

There's a box for 88% lactic acid. I use 85% phosphoric instead but the same amount. The mash pH (measured at room temperature) is 5.2 just as predicted. In the California Common I made yesterday, I needed to add 3ml of phosphoric acid, despite reasonable salt additions. So you can see that we're not talking about tiny tiny amounts. I suppose, thinking about it, adding acidulated malt is even more stress free since your LHBS can do that, no need to try precisely measure out phosphoric/lactic acid. EZ Water Calculator has a box for acidulated malt, bosh.

Not trying to place myself in opposition to Thirsty Boy, but I'd like to comment on the half a teaspoon sort of thing because it's how I started off with water additions. First off, I weighed a teaspoon of each, because they weigh differently. A teaspoon of CaSO4 is about 2.8g, a teaspoon of CaCl is about 3.4g. Using my Common beer yesterday (1.052OG, 25EBC) as an example, working on the actual water quality report* from Melbourne's Cardinia reservoir, entering the figures into EZ Water Calculator... Half a teaspoon of each for a balanced beer. The mash pH would be 5.57. Three salts out of spec according to Palmer's guidelines:

Ca - 27ppm (Palmer 50-150)
Mg - 1ppm (Palmer 10 - 30)
SO4 - 24ppm (Palmer 50 - 350)

Clearly it makes good beer or Thirsty Boy and countless others would have noticed by now, and my prior beers weren't half bad either. Yet it does seem to be considerably out of range, particularly for mash pH. To be in range, I had to add 4g MgSO4, 6g CaCl and 3g CaSO4. That's about 1 tsp, 2 tsp and 1 tsp respectively. And the 3ml of acid in the mash to hit 5.25 (and measurement confirmed) as mentioned. Obviously different beers would be different, this is just an illustration.

felten linked a forum post (cheers!) where deLange cleared up the issue regarding pH and measurement temperature. It seems that you do actually want to measure it at room temperature. So when people talk about an ideal pH of 5.2, they mean room, not mash temperature. Phew. He goes further and gives his measured pH/C change as 0.0055pH per degree. 66-21 = 45. 45 * 0.0055 = 0.2475. So if the mash is 5.2 at room, it should be fractionally under 5 at mash temperature.

If you read 5.2 at mash temperature then that's 5.45 at room. Which is no disaster anyway, it seems.

* http://www.melbournewater.com.au/content/library/water_storages/water_quality/Typical_analysis_of_Melbournes_water.pdf

Mat.

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

I've done some experimenting with the 5.2 bufffer you can typically buy - My science wasn't something you'd put your house on statistically.... but in none of the several (benchtop sized) experiments I did (even at more than twice the reccomended dose) did the addition of 5.2 buffering salts to Melbourne tap water, actually buffer a mash to 5.2. It essentially did nothing.

Its designed to buffer mashes done in water with relatively high dissolved solids - I'm not sure it does a lot in soft water..... to be honest I'm not sure it does a lot in any sort of water really.

If you live in Melbourne - stop fretting anyway. Thank your lucky stars you dont live somewhere the water makes you work & stick in 1tspn of Cacl for malty beers, 1 tspn of CaS04 for hoppy beers, 1/2 of each for balanced beers.... and you'll be as near as damn to right. Add an extra 1/2 teaspoon in either direction if your beer would include the word "very" in its malty or hoppy description.

People who live in Perth etc.... continue to fret you poor buggers.

Thats why we use RO units Reverse Osmosis unit
Nev

 

[manticle]

Think of a range rather than a specific number. Different enzymes have different optimal pH. From memory, 5.0-5.5 is a good range for both beta and alpha amylase when measured sacc/mash and ~5.3-5.8 at room temp. There is a range a fair bit outside this that is still OK for conversion -

Felten's link shows a post by Thirsty Boy a bit further down the page which is of interest too.

 

[Bada Bing Brewery]

I've done some experimenting with the 5.2 bufffer you can typically buy - My science wasn't something you'd put your house on statistically.... It essentially did nothing.

A little Ph fairy just died ........ Thanks for the info TB .....
Cheers
BBB

 

[RobW]

So what is room temp?
It's really so non-specific as to be useless.
Depends where you are and when - Broome in summer or Hobart in winter?

I would think you'd be better off nominating say 20oC.

 

[manticle]

Room temp is usually considered around 20 C. I believe there are official definitions that offer a range but the median temp falls around 20-21

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I've found the EZ Water Calculator spreadsheet works a treat. It highlights the need for further acidification, if needed, after you've entered your salt additions.

There's a box for 88% lactic acid. I use 85% phosphoric instead but the same amount. The mash pH (measured at room temperature) is 5.2 just as predicted. In the California Common I made yesterday, I needed to add 3ml of phosphoric acid, despite reasonable salt additions. So you can see that we're not talking about tiny tiny amounts. I suppose, thinking about it, adding acidulated malt is even more stress free since your LHBS can do that, no need to try precisely measure out phosphoric/lactic acid. EZ Water Calculator has a box for acidulated malt, bosh.

Not trying to place myself in opposition to Thirsty Boy, but I'd like to comment on the half a teaspoon sort of thing because it's how I started off with water additions. First off, I weighed a teaspoon of each, because they weigh differently. A teaspoon of CaSO4 is about 2.8g, a teaspoon of CaCl is about 3.4g. Using my Common beer yesterday (1.052OG, 25EBC) as an example, working on the actual water quality report* from Melbourne's Cardinia reservoir, entering the figures into EZ Water Calculator... Half a teaspoon of each for a balanced beer. The mash pH would be 5.57. Three salts out of spec according to Palmer's guidelines:

Ca - 27ppm (Palmer 50-150)
Mg - 1ppm (Palmer 10 - 30)
SO4 - 24ppm (Palmer 50 - 350)

Clearly it makes good beer or Thirsty Boy and countless others would have noticed by now, and my prior beers weren't half bad either. Yet it does seem to be considerably out of range, particularly for mash pH. To be in range, I had to add 4g MgSO4, 6g CaCl and 3g CaSO4. That's about 1 tsp, 2 tsp and 1 tsp respectively. And the 3ml of acid in the mash to hit 5.25 (and measurement confirmed) as mentioned. Obviously different beers would be different, this is just an illustration.

felten linked a forum post (cheers!) where deLange cleared up the issue regarding pH and measurement temperature. It seems that you do actually want to measure it at room temperature. So when people talk about an ideal pH of 5.2, they mean room, not mash temperature. Phew. He goes further and gives his measured pH/C change as 0.0055pH per degree. 66-21 = 45. 45 * 0.0055 = 0.2475. So if the mash is 5.2 at room, it should be fractionally under 5 at mash temperature.

If you read 5.2 at mash temperature then that's 5.45 at room. Which is no disaster anyway, it seems.

* http://www.melbournewater.com.au/content/library/water_storages/water_quality/Typical_analysis_of_Melbournes_water.pdf

Mat.

Your teaspoons must be a lot more conservative than mine.... 6-8g of either CaCl or CaSO4 when I am scooping. I arrived at that well and truly after coming out the other side of weighing, measuringing, calculating and all the guff.

For me - in melbourne water it all turns out quite simply. For a 25L post boil volume batch or thereabouts

You need the calcium... melbourne water is low in it. So you have to add it one way or another.
Pick the appropriate version of calcium salt for your beer... chloride or sulphate as you see fit
6-8g (a teaspoon) of it will get you near enough to your desired pH in a pale beer and wont push it too much low even in a dark one
Measure what actually happens..... adjust for next time.
magnesium salt.... if you like. I put in a pinch and thats enough to do everything you need. If you were to leave it out it would make little to no difference.

People - people with books to sell mainly - make water too complicated.

Add some calcium chloride or some calcium sulphate till your mash pH turns out to be about 5.4..... if it so happens that the amount of calcium salt you need to add to do this turns out to be more than a couple of teaspoons, either use some acid to push it the rest of the way instead - or better yet.... ditch your crappy water and get nice soft low DS water to brew with. Use a "calculator" to help you guess how much you might need - or on the other hand, just brew a few times, poke a pH meter at the results and sort it for yourself over a little while.

You should be able to come up with some nice easy all purpose amounts that work for a} pale beers b} brown beers c} black beers - and then all you have to do is keep shoving in the pH meter whenever you brew to make sure nothing has changed.

No books required, nice and simple.

TB

Oh and its 5.2 if you measure at MASH temp and 5.4 if you measure at around 20°. You're right about how temperature influences the reading, just not about the target ranges.

 

[Lecterfan]

I tend to brew a lot, especially when I am keen to learn new things and get past a plateau - sometimes I need basic advice like TB's rather than full theory, and then I go ahead and brew and adjust based on the results. My water profile is not miles removed from that of Melbourne. I would just like to add a purely anecdotal, non-scientific bit of advice for anyone just starting to explore water additions.

Please bear in mind that this is (obviously) totally dependant on your own water profile - but, for me and my water, it is far easier to ruin a beer with cal sulphate than with cal chloride. With dark malts it (cal sulphate) can give a horrid astringency, and in excessive amounts with other beers it adds a very minerally, slightly savoury profile that is sometimes enjoyable but distracting (in a red ale I did) and sometimes downright horrible (in a kolsch I did).

I am sorry that this isn't a pearl of empirical wisdom, but I feel it is worth mentioning for any other 'suck-it-and-see' brewers out there. Read the basics (as TB said, you may want calcium in one form or another such as in Melbourne water), but then make the choice carefully if you are daring enough to add more than 10gm total to your strikewater/mash/whatever. Cal Chloride has yet to have 'negative' effects for me in the same way and at similar rates.

Again, apologies this post isn't in the ball-park of others, but it might help someone.

I also subsequently found that 5.2 did nothing but buffer my confidence when mashing.

 

[manticle]

The actions required are simple. Sprinkle in some salts and maybe acid. Measure pH and taste the results.

It's the understanding why those actions are taken that can be complex. I know it took me ages to get my head around but I found the process interesting as some brewers are a nerdy lot).

However TB is right - you are essentially adding flavour salts when talking about the chloride and sulphate aspect and it's not that different from seasoning a steak in that regard (except you 'rest' the beer for a lot longer before tasting the results.

@Lecter: CaSO4 is generally not recommended for darker beers from the reading I've done.

 

[Lecterfan]

- yes, and I found out why 'the hard way'. Revolting astringency.

 

[manticle]

If only you'd read a book you heathen philistine.

 

[Lecterfan]

I did, but it was a choose your own adventure. I had read the small chunk(s) of Fix that are cited in the ubiquitous Wheeler article, but I didn't think that my sulphate levels were particularly high - and clearly my initial readings were overtaken by unbridled enthusiasm as I missed (or ignored) the definitive sentence "Sulphate is to be avoided altogether in dark beers" haha. Words to be taken seriously.

edit - for clarity.

 

[Lurks]

"Your teaspoons must be a lot more conservative than mine"

<shrug> obviously I don't use teaspoons, I use grams. I used a specific half teaspoon measure I have (for baking or some such) to make that estimate.

Thirsty Boy said:

"People - people with books to sell mainly - make water too complicated."

Hrm, well I've already discovered I'm making better beers using some of this theory and overcomplicating it is all part of the fun. For me anyway, and besides - once I work it out, it's pretty easy to implement on brewday.

"Oh and its 5.2 if you measure at MASH temp and 5.4 if you measure at around 20°"

I said 5.45, I'd have thought you'd let me off on that since I was overcomplicating as it is

P.S. Tasting a couple of pale ales from a former experiment last night (zactly the same beer, post modified). One of them had the CaSO4 pushed up to 250ppm while the other was half as much. The SO4-heavy beer tastes much more highly hopped, with 'zing' as the wife put it. I wouldn't describe it as more bitter but maybe someone else would. Interesting. At the least we have a better handle on the taste reality of these salts, which is nice.

Mat.