Building A Cpbf Without O2 Purge.

[Truman42]

Ive been reading threads on here about building a CPBF.

I also read a thread on HBT where they dont bother using CO2 to purge oxygen out of the bottle first. Their CPBF is just a beer in line through a stopper and down a cut down racking cane to the bottom of the bottle.

Link to thread on HBT

The idea is the beer pushes all the air out of the bottle and then he gives the bottle a gentle tip with the cap held on so foam starts pushing out the top which displaces the last bit of oxygen in the bottle, then its capped.

It seems to work and the OP said hes served beer from bottles that were filled over two months prior and are still in great condition.

Anyone else tried this? Seems to be a much easier way to make and use a CPBF and would save on gas too.

 

[Florian]

Does that classify as counter pressure? Havent looked at the Link, but from how you describe it you might as well just attach a piece of tubing or racking cane to your tap and fill that way, Same effect. The stopper is Not necessary if you dont pressurise the bottle First.

 

[Truman42]

Does that classify as counter pressure? Havent looked at the Link, but from how you describe it you might as well just attach a piece of tubing or racking cane to your tap and fill that way, Same effect. The stopper is Not necessary if you dont pressurise the bottle First.

Well many posters in that thread say they dont use the stopper and in fact just attach a bottling wand to their picnic tap and fill the bottle that way. You have to pre chill your bottles to get them nice and cold and set your reg to around 2 psi.

The key is to cap on foam so all the air is pushed out.

 

[mxd]

that's basically what the ubrew etc.. type pleaces do (without the long pipe)

there's many people here who will just dribble the beer down the side of a bottle

 

[Nick JD]

Can't see how these methods won't result in a flat beer in the bottle.

 

[Florian]

Well many posters in that thread say they dont use the stopper and in fact just attach a bottling wand to their picnic tap and fill the bottle that way. You have to pre chill your bottles to get them nice and cold and set your reg to around 2 psi.

The key is to cap on foam so all the air is pushed out.

It's also what I've been doing for the last year despite having a CPBF attached to the keg fridge. If I can I stick the bottles in the freezer for a few minutes, then stick a naked Co2 line in to flush air out, then fill with hose from tap.

I stick one of these over my perlicks and attach a bit of beer/gas line to the other end which goes into the bottle. Works very well with flow controls as you don't need to turn the Co2 down first.

 

[drsmurto]

That is just a slightly more upmarket version of the dribble method.

 

[barls]

its just a bottle filler at that point, why not just pour from the tap. it achieves the same thing.

 

[tallie]

Does that classify as counter pressure? Havent looked at the Link, but from how you describe it you might as well just attach a piece of tubing or racking cane to your tap and fill that way, Same effect. The stopper is Not necessary if you dont pressurise the bottle First.

The filler that was linked to has a stopper on it and a long line, so it's kind of half way between a CPBF and a Blichmann Beer Gun. Once the low pressure equalises, you need to allow it to escape from between the bottle and the stopper. The main difference between it and the other two is that there's no oxygen purging step.

I'm sure it'd be fine for cold short-term storage and/or darker beers (which have antioxidant properties), which probably covers the majority of cases.

Cheers,
tallie

 

[Truman42]

Can't see how these methods won't result in a flat beer in the bottle.

Well some of the posters have opened bottles 6 months later and they were still perfectly carbonated. One guy said his were bottled this way for 3 years.

I just had a stout and a Tripel bottled this way from 3 years ago - perfect pour!

Cold bottles, good sanitation, balanced CO2, and this method is rock solid.

 

[glenwal]

then stick a naked Co2 line in to flush air out

Does this actually flush the air out, or just result in a mixture of air/co2? I didn't think CO2 would displace O2 in that way due to Daltons law of partial pressure. (I thought) To flush out the air you need to fill with a liquid (eg water) first, and then displace that with CO2.

 

[Florian]

Does this actually flush the air out, or just result in a mixture of air/co2? I didn't think CO2 would displace O2 in that way due to Daltons law of partial pressure. (I thought) To flush out the air you need to fill with a liquid (eg water) first, and then displace that with CO2.

Depends how long you shoot Co2 in there. I'm pretty wasteful to be honest and usually flush for a good 10 seconds on 50 to 100 kpa and also move the hose while doing so. There shouldn't be much oxygen in there after that, especially if you consider that there's only about 21% oxygen in air.

It's still total overkill considering those beers get drunk on the same night anyway. Comps are a different story, works well for those.

 

[tallie]

Can't see how these methods won't result in a flat beer in the bottle.

Most of the carbonation will stay in solution, as long as it's kept cold and not agitated. It'll help if you over-carb it slightly and fill as high as possible to reduce the headspace to compensate for any that you do lose. Once the system is closed again, you'll only lose it to equalising with the headspace.

I was a bit surprised to find out that the Blichmann Beer Gun doesn't rely on counter pressure for filling, but instead it uses the long line to drop the pressure by the time it gets to the filler. Again, just because the pressure is dropped, doesn't mean it all comes out of solution instantly.

Cheers,
tallie

 

[Nick JD]

Well some of the posters have opened bottles 6 months later and they were still perfectly carbonated. One guy said his were bottled this way for 3 years.

So you can pour a beer with a dip tube at atmospheric pressure and it'll stay carbonated?

BS. Why do CPBFs exist if this works?

 

[Truman42]

So you can pour a beer with a dip tube at atmospheric pressure and it'll stay carbonated?

BS. Why do CPBFs exist if this works?

I dont know Nick thats why Im asking the experts on here if a CPBF is necassary.

But there are a lot of guys posting over there that say they have had bottles opened months to years later and they were still fine.

 

[_HOME_BREW_WALLACE_]

Most of the carbonation will stay in solution, as long as it's kept cold and not agitated. It'll help if you over-carb it slightly and fill as high as possible to reduce the headspace to compensate for any that you do lose. Once the system is closed again, you'll only lose it to equalising with the headspace.

I thought this too. Instead of wasting bottle gas would it be possible to use one of these to flush the bottle then use the method posted by the OP?

 

[.DJ.]

I do the dribble down the side method, but only for bottles I will drink within a few hours... The next day the are still carbed but not as much.

Would never do it for keeping beer any longer than 2 days...

 

[_HOME_BREW_WALLACE_]

It'd be interesting to know how the brewers that quoted the bottles were a "perfect pour" after 3 years went about it then.

 

[Nick JD]

There's two types of bottle filling:

1. It lasts 48 hours and is then flat.

2. Counter pressure bottle filling, done at a bee's dick less than keg pressure.

 

[Florian]

1. It lasts 48 hours and is then flat.

How would that work? How can the beer stay carbonated for 48 hours, then go flat in a sealed bottle, where does the Co2 go to?

I tend to believe that once Co2 is in the capped bottle it stays in there, regardless of the filling method.

EDIT: counter pressure filling is advanced because it rids the bottle of any or most oxygen before filling and because it reduces foaming (and thus loss of carbonation) due to the counter pressure. It doesn't change anything regarding carb level though once the bottle is capped.