Brewing Myths Caused By Chinese Whispers

[goomboogo]

TidalPete,

I was thinking that this was what Darren meant. Early stages with lid on rather than off (not a process I practice). I couldn't see a reason for having a lid on for the majority of the boil - unless you like the possibilty of drinking creamed corn.

 

[newguy]

DMS is going to flash off in the first 20 mins of the (vigorous) boil - but we need to careful of how we define a "boil". Those first 20 to 30 mins should be a "jumping" boil with the wort looking to try and get out of the kettle. If you can only get to a strong simmer, then it will take much longer.

Wes

I'll second that. Another thing about DMS is that if you cover or partially cover your kettle, the DMS will condense on the lid and fall right back into the wort. Commercial breweries with their fancy ducted kettles suffer from this. A local micro's wort always positively reeks of green vegetables when it goes into the fermenter, but within a day that smell is gone. A very vigourous fermentation (lots of yeast pitched) will scrub the DMS out of the beer.

 

[Kai]

I used to boil with the lid partially covered but very vigorously. I figured that even if most of the vapour was condensing and falling back into the kettle, the turnover was so high that most of it was escaping. I also liked watching such a heavy rolling boil. Now I use an electric kettle that is very suited to a mild boil with no lid. I can't say I notice a difference in terms of DMS but then again I am also a rampantly unrepentant "no-chiller".

And right there is where I think the problem with this thread lies. The suggested "myths" are not absolutes but they are most definitely good recommendations; it's just you can make great beer without following what are considered optimum methods, and whatever works for you is great, just don't discredit someone who recommends different. I agree, accepting advice blindly is foolish, but so is rejecting it without establishing adequate reason to do so.

I'd rather rapidly cool my wort to sub-20's before pitching, but it's more convenient for me to just throw it in a jerry and then into the laundry sink. Just because I make the occasional good batch of beer using this method does not discredit the fact that rapidly chilling your wort is technically better, much like brewing a good batch of beer at 25 does not invalidate the importance of better temperature control.

But before you get excited, Daz, I'm not giving up on the botulinum method just yet

 

[lowtech]

Sucrose needs to be inverted = Myth.

 

[wessmith]

Sucrose needs to be inverted = Myth.

Nup, TRUE. Yeast cant ferment sucrose and has to invert it before fermentation can begin (on the sucrose). Yeast produces the enzyme invertase to do the job which splits glucose and fructose from sucrose. Dont forget though, there will also be other fermentables available in the brew like maltose as an example.

Wes

 

[braufrau]

What a strange series of posts!

My understanding of the Term, "Chinese Whispers" is that a person will repeat what they thought they heard, and what they thought they heard may not be exactly what was spoken, a domino effect takes place and the final information, having being passed through a number of whisperers is quite different from the original.
In this situation I have no concrete record of what I heard and none either of what I passed on.

I think there is an element of chinese whispers. The whisper starts off "Don't ferment ale yeast at 24 unless you want lots of fruity esters" and then someone posts "and kit yeast is mostly ale yeast so until you've got some experience, ferment that at about 18C" and then on another thread someone who read the first thread posts "kit yeast should never be fermented above 18C".

So that's how it becomes like a chinese whisper. A qualified statement about yeast becomes a bald statement about kit yeast.

Maybe we could start some new ones "Darren leaves the lid on his pot after the first 20 mins. of the boil" :lol:

 

[Stuster]

So, Wes, do you see any need to specifically do anything to invert the sugar, or just leave it up to the yeast?

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Group Hug..... :icon_cheers:

 

[wessmith]

So, Wes, do you see any need to specifically do anything to invert the sugar, or just leave it up to the yeast?

This is quite a contentious issue and occupied a lot of bandwidth on the HBD some years back. Some believe that you can taste the invertase in the finished beer, while others claim it makes no difference. In the end it is impractical to try and produce a fully inverted sucrose for brewing. The acid/heat method just doesnt make sense when you look at how much acid and neutralising base has to be added. More recent catalysed inversion methods or even the use of synthetic invertase are all too expensive, so in the end we leave it up to the yeast.

Now, is there any flavour difference between Aussie cane sucrose crystals and Belgian beet sucrose crytals? - my answer is yes. Beet sucrose seems to me to be a softer flavour where the Aussie cane sucrose has a "citrus tang". You can actually smell the "citrus tang" when you open a jar of table sugar that has been stored for a while. Very slight but detectable.

At the height of the HBD debates, I contacted the fermentation manager at one of our larger commercial breweries to get their take in inversion. It was pretty inconclusive - yes they did use some inverted sucrose for some products but always in combination with other "adjuncts". I believe today that there is little if any invert sugar used in commercial brewing in Australia.

So again, we leave the yeast to have its way - or maybe we can train up a squadron of bees to produce a perfect invert sugar......

Wes

 

[Ross]

No stirs here stagga. What price democracy? My original (non-offensive?) post has GONE
Very, very, upset here.

TP :beer:

sorry to go :icon_offtopic: but if moderators pull a thread for whatever reason, isn't it common courtesy to advise the poster & give him/her the reason? This seems to have been a regular occurance of late & has lead to all sorts of (hopefully daft) conspiracy theories.
I've generally recieved excellent communication from the mods on posts that i've made in the past which have caused someone to complain, even when the post hasn't been pulled - but likewise have had posts removed without so much as a word.

Cheers Ross

 

[braufrau]

This is quite a contentious issue and occupied a lot of bandwidth on the HBD some years back. Some believe that you can taste the invertase in the finished beer, while others claim it makes no difference. In the end it is impractical to try and produce a fully inverted sucrose for brewing. The acid/heat method just doesnt make sense when you look at how much acid and neutralising base has to be added.

So do you have an idea of how much gets inverted with the tsp in of citric acid over the stove method?

 

[Ross]

The acid/heat method just doesnt make sense when you look at how much acid and neutralising base has to be added.
Wes

Wes,

I've always done the teaspoon of citric acid into a kilo of sugar & gently boiled for 20 mins berfore adding to my wort, especially when i'm making a high gravity brew where I want high attenuation.
Am i wasting my time with this? I've always been very pleased with the results, but never done a comparison as I've never wanted to risk a brew.

Cheers Ross

 

[braufrau]

Here's another one ... dunnow if its a myth or not ... never bitter more than 21IBUs wih POR!
Or a variation .. don't use POR as an aroma hop. :huh:

 

[wessmith]

The teaspoon of citric acid in a kilo of sugar would probably invert around 10% of the sugar. To get to a 60% invert with acid commercially, a large amount of sulphuric acid is added and then after inversion it has to neutralised with caustic soda. All the resulting chemical compounds remain in the invert sugar. This should give you some idea of the amount of acid needed. Not for me!

You can get a very good 96% invert syrup from any commercial bakery supplier - its called Trimoline but a bit $$ though. I think the 20kg i bought years ago cost me $80. It has been produced through the invertase enzyme method.

Wes

 

[Ross]

The teaspoon of citric acid in a kilo of sugar would probably invert around 10% of the sugar.

Wes

Well there's a great myth busted, thanks Wes - It was doing a search for "inverted sugar" that found me my first beer forum (Grumpy's) & the method described to produce it - I've been using the method ever since. Next time i shan't bother & hopefully will notice no difference.

cheers Ross

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

sorry to go :icon_offtopic: but if moderators pull a thread for whatever reason, isn't it common courtesy to advise the poster & give him/her the reason? This seems to have been a regular occurance of late & has lead to all sorts of (hopefully daft) conspiracy theories.
I've generally recieved excellent communication from the mods on posts that i've made in the past which have caused someone to complain, even when the post hasn't been pulled - but likewise have had posts removed without so much as a word.

Cheers Ross

:icon_offtopic: Ross I have to agree . I have recently been on the recieving end of being accused of having had some ones post pulled off one of my retail threads. Which was not the case as I explained. I was then accused by the same person of getting some one else to put in the report .All of which created ill feelings .Now forgotten of course. But I think the mods should as they have in the past explain the reasons why posts are pulled with out giving out personal details.I think this will go a long way to making this forum a happier play ground and stop the conspiracy theories.
GB

 

[Stuster]

Well there's a great myth busted, thanks Wes

+1. Good to know what you notice as well, Ross.

 

[Darren]

I apologise for going off original topic but I'm seeking a clarification. Darren, you stated in an earlier post that you begin the boil with the lid off (first 20 or so minutes). Does this mean that at some other point in the boil you have the lid on?

Hey Goomboogo,

Yeah, I leave the lid off until the boil is really boiling (yes it does take more gas to get to the boil) Once the hot break has formed and the chance of boilover has passed I put the lid on. My boiler is a big old keg and my lid is the original keg top. It has a hole in the middle that lets steam escape for the remainder of the boil. So yes, lid off to allow the DMS to escape at the beginning, replace for the last half hour or so.

cheers

Darren

 

[Darren]

Here's another one ... dunnow if its a myth or not ... never bitter more than 21IBUs wih POR!
Or a variation .. don't use POR as an aroma hop. :huh:

Only one way to find out BF,

Give it a go.

My experience says it is true. I have doubted and tested most of the "myths". Bittering with POR above about 25 IBU is harsh.

Fresh POR hops are nice for aroma. Stale POR for aroma is like stale cheese.

cheers

Darren

 

[Darren]

This is quite a contentious issue and occupied a lot of bandwidth on the HBD some years back. Some believe that you can taste the invertase in the finished beer, while others claim it makes no difference. In the end it is impractical to try and produce a fully inverted sucrose for brewing. The acid/heat method just doesnt make sense when you look at how much acid and neutralising base has to be added. More recent catalysed inversion methods or even the use of synthetic invertase are all too expensive, so in the end we leave it up to the yeast.

Now, is there any flavour difference between Aussie cane sucrose crystals and Belgian beet sucrose crytals? - my answer is yes. Beet sucrose seems to me to be a softer flavour where the Aussie cane sucrose has a "citrus tang". You can actually smell the "citrus tang" when you open a jar of table sugar that has been stored for a while. Very slight but detectable.

At the height of the HBD debates, I contacted the fermentation manager at one of our larger commercial breweries to get their take in inversion. It was pretty inconclusive - yes they did use some inverted sucrose for some products but always in combination with other "adjuncts". I believe today that there is little if any invert sugar used in commercial brewing in Australia.


Wes

I was alsways under the impression the reason that "invert sugar" was made was primarily for colour. You can get some really nice red hues if boil at the correct temps for long enough. Great for Belgian styles. Adding a bit of citric acid during the process doesn't hurt (even if it does only invert 10%).

If you are using the cane sugar as an adjunct for aussie style beer, simply make it into a solution with water and add at the beginning of the boil. The heat and low pH of the boil will probably do most inversion that would occur on the stove-top.

cheers

Darren