Brett Questions

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I've used it a bit (not extensively yet but got more plans). To date I've used only glass and one dedicated cube fermenter. Bottling bucket, auto-syphon though have been used for that and other batches and no house flavour development to date. I am always very careful with cleaning after that (though I'm always very careful). I guess my point is that as long as you use a good cleaning, sanitation regime then you should be ok. There's plenty of stuff floating round that we have to deal with in any case.
 
Hey Stus,

Just watch those kegs. Not often you intentionally culture up a flavour "bug"

cheers

Darren
 
Bretts all fun and good to experiment with until you find it in all your beers. I've got a barleywine which has gone from awesome to very very dry and pissy thanks to brett.

Keep your lambics and brett experiments well away from your 'standard brews' and never use the fermenters for anything but wild beers again.

As for yeasts, I've had really good results by adding orval dregs to a wyyeast saison strain.

Does anyone have any idea how to slow the rate the brett takes over the beer? I reckon orval takes about 1 year for the brett to really take hold, and two years for it to go a bit nasty... by 6 months all my brett beers are (for want of a better word)... screwed.

Happy wild brewing
 
As far as contamination goes - I've got the batch in a glass fermenter and have labelled everything with BRETT in nikko, stoppers, hoses etc. so hoping that nothing crosses over by using the same gear across batches.

That's the plan anyway.

I like the sound of a 'house yeast' though. Gives it character. ;)

Thanks everyone for your input and advice.

Kev
 
Some others bretty beers I've encountered that you may run into - T'ij Zatte (T'ij do a few bretts), Piraat Blond (intentional?), most of De Dolle's beers, some Le Baladin, the occasional Achel (def unintentional). Live lambics you might find are Boon, Cantillon, and Lindemans (though the cuvee rene is prob the only one with live cultures in it). Boon is running a bit dry in oz atm afaik but Cantillon will be back soon.
 
Does anyone have any idea how to slow the rate the brett takes over the beer?

Bleach!

Seriously though........... i would have thought it was dependant on the amount of Brett in the beer to how long it took to geet going.

Im no expert though............ my only experience with wild yeast infections is treating them with lots of bleach!

cheers
 
Back in my Ye Olde Malt Shovel days, we picked up a Brettanomyces contamination in the wheat beer we were making at the time (dirty bright tank, no sterile filter before pack, no pasteuriser). I reckon that this was the most fascinating thing I have ever observed in beer.

Contamination was very low level but as mentioned in this thread, brett strains are slow growing and can chomp away on carbohydrates that regular Saccharomyces culture yeasts can't. On average, on a six pack basis, three bottles dodged the bullet, two bottles got one cell only and the sixth got two or three. Each cell grew into a colony which didn't disperse through the beer. Instead, they formed little balls about the size of a chick pea that were gossamer thin but still very visible. you could roll them around the bottom of the bottle. In a six pack, half the beers were bretty and the other half weren't. And you could see which were which without removing the crown...

I liked the bretty ones. Personal taste I guess. The product was pulled from the shelves and the brand killed. The raspberry beer that's on the shelves at the moment is the first 'Mad Brewers' release since the bretty beer four or five years ago.
 
Back in my Ye Olde Malt Shovel days, we picked up a Brettanomyces contamination in the wheat beer we were making at the time (dirty bright tank, no sterile filter before pack, no pasteuriser). I reckon that this was the most fascinating thing I have ever observed in beer.

Contamination was very low level but as mentioned in this thread, brett strains are slow growing and can chomp away on carbohydrates that regular Saccharomyces culture yeasts can't. On average, on a six pack basis, three bottles dodged the bullet, two bottles got one cell only and the sixth got two or three. Each cell grew into a colony which didn't disperse through the beer. Instead, they formed little balls about the size of a chick pea that were gossamer thin but still very visible. you could roll them around the bottom of the bottle. In a six pack, half the beers were bretty and the other half weren't. And you could see which were which without removing the crown...

I liked the bretty ones. Personal taste I guess. The product was pulled from the shelves and the brand killed. The raspberry beer that's on the shelves at the moment is the first 'Mad Brewers' release since the bretty beer four or five years ago.

That sounds pretty interesting did you measure any to see how much further it attenuated?
 
That sounds pretty interesting did you measure any to see how much further it attenuated?
No, I don't recall that we did...

But they were drier. Dry and clovey (4vg). Not 'horsey' or 'hospital/band-aidy' (which I think is 4 ethyl-phenol... a winemaker friend ran me through all their faults once).

Delicious though. Should have kept one for culturing...
 
But they were drier. Dry and clovey (4vg). Not 'horsey' or 'hospital/band-aidy' (which I think is 4 ethyl-phenol... a winemaker friend ran me through all their faults once).

Delicious though. Should have kept one for culturing...
Mmmm 4vg my fave in a wheat better than hubba bubba and banana's, amazing that it was so controlled. I have 30l of red wine in my shed that is only fit for "purification" waayy too much horseiness :ph34r: . I know it's OT but did your winemaker mate say much about what other effects it had? in my bad stuff it has ripped a lot of of the colour out and all of the fruit, looks more like a dark rose than a merlot now and tastes like a barnyard.
 
Just thinking about Darren's warning about how hard it is to kill off brett - specifically in kegs.

Fair call that chemically it might be hard to sort it out, but surely boiling water is going to kill brett no matter what? Valves, lids, seals all into a big pot of water and boil the bejeezus out of them for half an hour. Doesn't matter what nooks and crannys the yeasties are hiding in, 100 is gonna do for them. The boiling water then goes into the already normally sanitized keg for a good swirl around and a follow up with another round of sanitiser.

Maybe a plastic fermenter would be beyond help, but I really cant see a yeast living through a determined effort to clean them out of a keg.

Or.. perhaps I am being naive and Brett are just a helluvalot tougher than other bugs???


PS - Dig, that Brett story from Malt Shovel is bloody fascinating
 
No, I don't recall that we did...

But they were drier. Dry and clovey (4vg). Not 'horsey' or 'hospital/band-aidy' (which I think is 4 ethyl-phenol... a winemaker friend ran me through all their faults once).

Delicious though. Should have kept one for culturing...


Great story dig. I reckon Les the Weizguy might have a culture from the old JS Weizen. Were all the batches infected or just one?
 
Just thinking about Darren's warning about how hard it is to kill off brett - specifically in kegs.

Fair call that chemically it might be hard to sort it out, but surely boiling water is going to kill brett no matter what? Valves, lids, seals all into a big pot of water and boil the bejeezus out of them for half an hour. Doesn't matter what nooks and crannys the yeasties are hiding in, 100 is gonna do for them. The boiling water then goes into the already normally sanitized keg for a good swirl around and a follow up with another round of sanitiser.

Maybe a plastic fermenter would be beyond help, but I really cant see a yeast living through a determined effort to clean them out of a keg.

Or.. perhaps I am being naive and Brett are just a helluvalot tougher than other bugs???

Boil a keg, boil a dip-tube?? As Dig reported, it only takes single cells to make it through. Thirsty, by your reckoning no-one should need sanitiser ever. Just boil everything.

You cannot be that naive surely??

cheers

Darren
 
Boil a keg, boil a dip-tube?? As Dig reported, it only takes single cells to make it through. Thirsty, by your reckoning no-one should need sanitiser ever. Just boil everything.

You cannot be that naive surely??

cheers

Darren
I don't think it's that far beyond the capabilities of most AGer's with half a brain and a decent sized kettle to be able to boil a keg or a dip tube even if it has to be done in stages, why not be positive for once? Same as for doing some caustic / acid cycles to knock it on its backside. I am sure MS didn't consign that bright beer tank to the scrap heap or did they :eek:
 
Probably a worthless contribution to this thread... However.

I added Orval dregs to a Saison once it was fully fermented out, gave it time in the keg (around 3 months) to chew away, bottled the resultant Saison with the standard 6g per litre of priming sugar.

:excl: Here's where it gets a little tricky, the first bottle or two was fine with maybe a slightly over-zealous carbonation. Subsequent bottles got very violent to the point of not being able to pour them without a mass of foam.

They were bottled in champagne bottles which I guess are able to withstand high pressure. Heard a loud bang down the garage and realised there's only so much pressure they can withstand.

Quickly disposed of the remaining lethal weapons by breaking them in the bin. I dare say if brett can rupture a champagne bottle it needs to be respected. :eek:

Warren -
 
Boil a keg, boil a dip-tube?? As Dig reported, it only takes single cells to make it through. Thirsty, by your reckoning no-one should need sanitiser ever. Just boil everything.

You cannot be that naive surely??

cheers

Darren

No Darren, I didn't suggest that did I?

I suggested boiling the parts that are complex in shape and small, and suggested double sanitising and washing out with boiling water the parts that are all smooth stainless steel. If the brett can survive that, screw it, it deserves to live.

There are almost certainly hundreds or thousands of wild yeast cells on anything whatsover that has been exposed to non-sterile filtered air... are those cells somehow less durable than brett? Or is it only safe to expose fermentors and bottle and fill kegs in a hepa filtered positive pressure room?

All I am saying is that Brett might be a bit tougher than your average yeasty and a bit of extra care in sanitation beyond your normal regime might be required ... but its not a super bug and its hardly necessary to nuke everything thats ever been in contact with the stuff.

Or there wouldn't be a single brewery or winery in the land that was able to operate.... well, except for Orval anyway.

Oh, and if you could boil everything, you wouldn't need sanitiser would you?
 
I see the recomendations for the bleech or boiling options here.......Does the sodium percarbonate or hydrogen peroxide approach work with Brett and Lacto or do you need to attack the stuff with bleech to clean out fermenters and kegs.

Also, on the bleech front, isn't it supposed to do bad stuff to stainless?
 
There are almost certainly hundreds or thousands of wild yeast cells on anything whatsover that has been exposed to non-sterile filtered air... are those cells somehow less durable than brett? Or is it only safe to expose fermentors and bottle and fill kegs in a hepa filtered positive pressure room?

All I am saying is that Brett might be a bit tougher than your average yeasty and a bit of extra care in sanitation beyond your normal regime might be required ... but its not a super bug and its hardly necessary to nuke everything thats ever been in contact with the stuff.

TB,

I think you are missing the point. Not sure if you did microbiology 101 but hot water is a very ineffective sanitiser, especially over large metal surfaces

I never said Brett was a super bug what I am saying is that if you intentionally culture Brett (or any other spoilage organism) and run it through your equipment there is certainly an increased chance of infected subsequent batches.

cheers

Darren
 

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