Boiling Times

[wessmith]

Tom,

The foam head at the beginning of the boil is NOT the hot break. It is simply the proteinatious material beginning the protein breakdown process - just as it does when you par-boil your sausages for the BBQ. The hot break occurs slowly starting with small particles circulating in the wort gradually agglomerating to larger whitish particles as the boil progresses and clears. This can take 30 to 60 mins depending on the wort chemistry and sometimes needs a prod with somthing like Whirlfloc or Irish Moss.

When the heat is turned off the wort will turn turbid as the COLD break forms and settles.

I have seen many HB references to the foam head as hot break and it just aint so...

Wes

 

[Ray_Mills]

Hi all

I always boil for 90 minutes minimum no matter what beer it is. The bittering hops start at 60 min. I never did that before as i used to add the hops at the start of the boil.

Now i let the wort boil for 30 minutes before hop additions. I dont know the technical reasons but it seems to work better with the bittering. Bigger beers I boil longer.

When i added the hops at the start of the boil i noticed a lot of hops on the side of the boiler. Also I skim when I brew lagers. If you skim the start of the boil with hop additions you will end up removing a lot of bittering hops.

Boil 90 minutes
Add hops at 60 minutes
It works

Ray

 

[SJW]

Im with you RAY. I start adding heat about half way thru my last batch sparge so by the time i am up to volume i have it close to a boil. All the same i let it boil for a solid 15 to 20 mins after that before adding my first hop add.

 

[Tony M]

From an old BYO mag.
The Boil

Boil for 90 minutes to volatilize (vaporize) the sulfitic compounds and precipitate a proper protein break. Some brewers only boil grain beers for an hour, which works to some extent but does not sufficiently reduce the S-methyl methionine. The SMM in the kettle is the precursor to dimethyl sulfide (vegetable or corn flavor) in fermentation, and DMS is not a desirable flavor in lagers. The half-life of SMM is 45 minutes, so a 90-minute boil helps to eliminate it, although it is true that SMM continues to form from the heat in the kettle while it sits in wait for the heat exchanger transfer into the fermenter. And of course, longer boil means concentration of flavors and better hot break (trub knock out).

From the little I have read, the SMM concentration has a lot to do with the grain and the Maltster, so Wessmith can perhaps guide us regarding Australian malts

 

[wessmith]

TonyM, as you aptly point out, your info is from an "old BYO Mag". Things have moved on in the past 5 to 10 years. Most Euro lagers and certainly the UK lagers, used to exhibit an element of DMS as part of the required flavour profile - indeed some still do. Today, most eurolagers have an ester background with a suedo-malt flavour achieved from the use of calcium mineralisation. In fact, to the point where there is very little difference between any of the taste profiles of the major brewers. All very dissapointing and part of a work I will do one day on "Who is Killing the Great Beers of Europe"

Actually SMM is MOSTLY decomposed into free DMS during kilning and any remaining SMM will be converted to DMS and evaporated during the boil - and yes it takes around 90 mins.

Modern pilsner malts including JW Pils, are malted or rather kilned to achieve a certain malt flavour/aroma as distinct from the poorly modified and low temp kilned pils malts of yesteryear Europe. For those who love the detail, JW Pilsner malt has a max of 4 PPB (parts per billion) DMS precursor.

Whew, Im off for non DMS Pilsner.

Wes

 

[Tony M]

Wes,
Thanks for that. I must say that I find your posts most informative and reliable. The information that is available out there is sometimes questionable. I think that if you asked a question of 10 home brewers, you would get seven different answers. In fact, my mates reckon I was making better beers before I discovered the internet.

 

[RobW]

I think that if you asked a question of 10 home brewers, you would get seven different answers.

Or maybe ask 7 brewers & get 10 different answers.

 

[Peter Wadey]

Jayse wrote:

90mins here but the timer is not my tool for predicting the exact boil finish, after all what does that know about your wort all it measures is time.
The real measure of the boil end is a gravity reading or dip stick. Given that, my boil is 'average' 90mins but can be 5 mins either side of that, a big factor that could change the boil time is the wind on the day etc, many brewers boil by time alone and ask why they never get there volume and gravity right, all i say to that is time is a guide not the definit time to turn the heat of.
Saying that ussually my boil is always 90mins, just i don't use the time as the be all and end all, the gravity and volume is the most important. If that makes sense.

G'day Jayse,
I understand what your saying about boiling to achieve a target SG, but surely that's only one side of the coin. What about the char. imparted by the hopping schedule?
How do you manage this when the boil end point is variable?

For the poll: I boil for 90 min. Love that smell.

Rgds,
Peter
Eastwood, NSW

 

[wessmith]

I boil for 70 to 90 minutes depending on style, however the key determining factor is the hot break. If it is a bit slow developing I will extend the boil and delay the late hop additions accordingly. If the total volume drops below my "plimsol" line I add some brewing liquor from the HLT to bring the kettle up to volume.

Historical calibration is essential in brewing ie you need to always know where you should be in a volumetric sense - then you can adjust the rest of your brewing sequence to suit. Hope that makes good sense...

Wes.

 

[deebee]

My standard has been to let it boil "for a little while" and then start timing 60 minutes from the first hops addition.

After reading this thread I will move towards the 90 minutes others suggest.

 

[jayse]

snipped>
G'day Jayse,
I understand what your saying about boiling to achieve a target SG, but surely that's only one side of the coin. What about the char. imparted by the hopping schedule?
How do you manage this when the boil end point is variable?

Hi peter,
I was wondering if and when someone was going to raise that point. Anyway it is as you would expect, for finishing hops once any go in they are strickly timed. For the bitter I haven't found yet ever getting better utilzation out of boil for say 10mins more, ie 70mins instead of 60mins.
I know of a couple micros and maybe there is a hell of a lot more that only use kettle hops and flame out hops, Just boil down untill it hits the gravity then throw the finishing hops in. Anyway it does seem if your kettle hops are boiled for at least 60 mins then 10 mins more doesn't give you any noticable extra utilzation.
Like wes mentioned doing i have had to add some extra water with the finishing hops on a couple of brews, i think that is not even a option for brewers, you just do it! if you boil to much of then you add it back.
My boil off figures are 65L start and 50L end over 90mins, which at 15% per hour gives me 5 litres every half hour.


Cheers and happy brewing.
Jayse :chug:

 

[nonicman]

This has been a good learning thread. Just wanted to check that I'm getting the right idea.
It appears that the boil should last around 90 minutes, depending on your boiling point (e.g. Ray is in Bulli, close to sealevel and boils for 90 minutes to produce top quality beer) and brew ingredients. If the brew is high gravity, a longer boil is required than for a low gravity beer. You need the 90 minutes inorder for the required reactions to take place in the kettle.
For the next brew day, I'll aim for a 90 minute boil (minimum), once the kettle starts it's rolling boil, after 30 minutes or when the volume evoporates to a point where if boiled for a further 60 minutes the target volume will be reached. At this point, switch on the timer for 60 minutes and add the bittering hops. Near flameout, top up with water if need be.

Like all aspects of brewing, it seems boiling is not just a matter of switching on a timer and reacting to it's alarms. Hope I'm on the right track. Looks like it will take a few brews to get this aspect correct.

Thanks to all the posters on this thread.

 

[pint of lager]

Yes, you are definitely on the right track. Like so many answers in homebrewing, the answer is, it depends.

There are lots of reactions occurring in the boil, not just evaporation.

I think from all my reading, 90 minutes rolling boil is the ideal. Too short and you have long term stability problems of the finished product. Too long, and I seem to remember that foam stability and some other things suffer, don't quote me on that as I haven't gone hunting through my brewing texts to clarify. Also, I haven't done long boils to verify for myself.

Many people do long boils for barley wines and they are notorious for lack of foam and carbonation, which is always blamed on alcohol content.

 

[THE DRUNK ARAB]

Due to a decreased evaporation rate and lower than normal efficiency I had to boil the beer I brewed on the weekend for 170 minutes :blink: .

I had planned a 120 minute boil.

All I can say is thank christ I used the refractometer to check the wort gravity at different stages during the boil. If not my hop schedule would have been way out.

Any one find they get less evaporation during the colder months?

C&B
TDA

 

[warrenlw63]

Any one find they get less evaporation during the colder months?

C&B
TDA

[post="68560"][/post]​

Sure do TDA,

I just use my boiler lid to adjust to my given environment. More evaporation, lid off a lot. Less evaporation, lid gets closed more.

Alarmingly simple. Oddly enough during colder weather I get less evaporation, yet conversely I get more steam hanging around the boiler making it hard to see in. :unsure:

Warren -

 

[Jim - Perth]

Generally 60min. but this thread has persuaded me to look at this more carefully & consider a number of different factors but to head towards the 90min mark.

 

[RobW]

Due to a decreased evaporation rate and lower than normal efficiency I had to boil the beer I brewed on the weekend for 170 minutes :blink: .

I had planned a 120 minute boil......

[post="68560"][/post]​

Are there any downsides to such a long boil ? (apart from the extra gas used )
Can you overboil? The longest I've done is 90 min.

 

[JimD]

Hi, this is my first post on here.

I make English-style ales and I usually boil for around 90 minutes: -

10 minutes with no hops, then another 80 minutes or so with the bittering hops. I add more hops at around 30m from the end and then the aroma hops and Irish moss 15 mins before the end.

 

[Joel]

Just found this thread...

But what about FWH? Will boiling for approx 30 min before the bittering hop addition affect the whole FWH concept?

I'm an AG virgin until this weekend, so I'm glad I found this thread. Yet more good info. You just never stop learning...

 

[pint of lager]

Joel says:

You just never stop learning...

Too true.

Brewing is such a great hobby, you can carry it from kit and kilo, through ag and all the way to PhD if that is what you want to do. And you get to drink fine beer. Just when you think you understand, there is always another level of complexity that you can learn. More books to buy. More articles to google up.

When I FWH, I use about a 1/3 of the bitter hop component, add to the first runnings and don't make any adjustments to the IBU's. Promash does let you select for FWH, but then drops the IBU's which I don't follow as the hops do go into the boil and all the bitterness would be extracted.

Not sure what happens to the flavour due to an extra 30 minute boil.