Boil Extract

[brando]

Guys,

Here is my first post. I have searched for the answer, but perhaps not hard enough, so please be kind.

I can't work out whether or not it is necessary to add kit extract to the pot for boiling hops (and perhaps also steeping grain). I mean, until now I have just added my Coopers Lager can straight to the fermenter, so why would I need to boil it for any reason?

I see some recipies that say to add extract to the pot, and some say add DME, others don't say to do this. I am confused.

My feeling is that all I need to do for going to the next stage after K&K is to boil hops over an hours session, and put them in at different times (i.e. 60 mins, 30 mins and 5 mins). Then add this hop tea to the fermenter along with my extract straight from the can and dextrose straight from the bag, and DME straight from the bag, then pitch yeast when temp is right.

Can someone please point me in the right direction?

 

[buttersd70]

My feeling is that all I need to do for going to the next stage after K&K is to boil hops over an hours session, and put them in at different times (i.e. 60 mins, 30 mins and 5 mins). Then add this hop tea to the fermenter along with my extract straight from the can and dextrose straight from the bag, and DME straight from the bag, then pitch yeast when temp is right.

Can someone please point me in the right direction?

no, that's wrong. You need a certain amount of malt in with the hops, for proper flavour development, but not too much, or it will not extract enough bitterness....
have a read of John Palmers how to brew here

try the search phrase "boil gravity", and you should get some hits; if the site search is hard, go to google and type

site:aussiehomebrewer.com boil gravity

obviously, you can replace boil gravity with any other term.

 

[Cocko]

Hey brando, welcome aboard!

One thing to remember when boiling hops is you will most utilise the hops by boiling in a liquid at 1.040-1.050 SG.

I used to boil up at about 6L and get pretty good results from what I could tell....

A good guide is about 100g of LDME per litre of water! Do your hour boil, hop additions etc... and then add it to what ever else the brew calls for in the fermenter.. mix.. temp and pitch!!

I hope this helps.

C

 

[Gavo]

have a read of John Palmers how to brew here

Have to agree here. If you are wanting to extend your brewing knowledge and understanding this is a great place to start. There are many variables in the questions you pose.

Cheers
Gavo.

 

[bconnery]

Here are a couple of links to some posts I did some time back on extract and kit brewing.
These are the methods that I used for years and I believe they produced very good beers, particularly on the extract side of things.

These are not intended as gospel and there are probably things I now might change but they are methods that worked very well for me.
The kit brewing one in particular contains some methods that lots of people disagree with, but I still maintain they resulted in a superior beer.

Anyways here are the links, disgree with them or use them as you will...

Easy Guide to Extract Brewing

Getting the best out of kits

 

[smollocks]

I've also read varying advice on this, but here's what I've gathered.

I've read that you shouldn't boil the kit contents (i.e. the can of goo) because it has already been boiled and additional boiling will destroy any hops in the kit. So the can should be emptied straight into the fermenter and dissolved in hot water.

I think you do boil the additional kilo of LDME (separate to what was in the can) to precipitate the hot break, and you can add your hops to this boil.

However John Palmer and bconnery's link seem indicate that you do boil the kit itself, so maybe someone can clarify whether the kit and the additional kilo of malt/dextrose are in fact treated differently.

 

[brando]

I've also read varying advice on this, but here's what I've gathered.

I've read that you shouldn't boil the kit contents (i.e. the can of goo) because it has already been boiled and additional boiling will destroy any hops in the kit. So the can should be emptied straight into the fermenter and dissolved in hot water.

I think you do boil the additional kilo of LDME (separate to what was in the can) to precipitate the hot break, and you can add your hops to this boil.

However John Palmer and bconnery's link seem indicate that you do boil the kit itself, so maybe someone can clarify whether the kit and the additional kilo of malt/dextrose are in fact treated differently.

bConnery, that is about the best and clearest info I've seen - thanks for that.
I assume that it is the grain runnings that provides the necessary "certain amount of malt in with the hops" that buttersd70 was refering to earlier in the thread. Is that right?

 

[bconnery]

bConnery, that is about the best and clearest info I've seen - thanks for that.
I assume that it is the grain runnings that provides the necessary "certain amount of malt in with the hops" that buttersd70 was refering to earlier in the thread. Is that right?

That is right. You can add in extract instead or as well.

I've also read varying advice on this, but here's what I've gathered.

I've read that you shouldn't boil the kit contents (i.e. the can of goo) because it has already been boiled and additional boiling will destroy any hops in the kit. So the can should be emptied straight into the fermenter and dissolved in hot water.

I think you do boil the additional kilo of LDME (separate to what was in the can) to precipitate the hot break, and you can add your hops to this boil.

However John Palmer and bconnery's link seem indicate that you do boil the kit itself, so maybe someone can clarify whether the kit and the additional kilo of malt/dextrose are in fact treated differently.

The boil of the kit is the main difference between mine and the accepted methods. I treated the kit almost as extract, adding in my own hops rather than relying on kits for any, as I felt most didn't really provide much in the way of hop flavour. Adding in fresh hops was a revalation the first time I did so and I evolved my method to almost always use them.

You can definitely boil the extract with hops and then add the dissolved kit, and this will work fine. I however advocate boiling the kit, even just for 5/10 minutes, in fact that was my preferred amount of time.

 

[buttersd70]

A few ppl on here boil the kit as bconnery does, usually choosing a fairly 'neutral' flavoured kit...it kills off the hop flavour and aroma, so you have a bittered extract which is a blank slate for your own flavour additions....

Many brewers that do this are more in the mindset that what they are doing is an 'extract brew without a bittering addition', because they are adding all the flavour components, rather than a 'kits and bits' brew, where they are adding flavour components to enhance the flavours that are already there.

 

[chappo1970]

Adding in fresh hops was a revalation the first time I did so and I evolved my method to almost always use them.

bconnery - That's exactly what I have been doing myself and exactly how I got to doing it. True story.

I got to admit I haven't mentioned it as yet because of it being unorthodox and wasn't overly confident to reveal my "dirty little secret" even though my results, IMO, have been outstanding. In fact IMO getting rid of some of the kit flavour and aromas has a great deal of advantages to someone just starting to find out what hops does what, where and when, if you get my drift. I started with single hop additions to discover what the different varieties added/took away and have since moved on multiple hops now I have a basic understand of what hop does what.

 

[MrDizzy]

So, if I'm using unhopped liquid malt extract, can I get away with not adding it to the boil
(apart from the small amount needed to get the necessary boil gravity)?

Even unhopped LME has already been boiled, so the hot break has already been removed, right?

 

[buttersd70]

So, if I'm using unhopped liquid malt extract, can I get away with not adding it to the boil
(apart from the small amount needed to get the necessary boil gravity)?

Even unhopped LME has already been boiled, so the hot break has already been removed, right?

yes, thats correct, it has been boiled and whirlpooled. If the LME is in a tin (as opposed to a bulk drum), it will also be sterile, so theres not even any need to boil to sanatise. You might want to add it in to what you are boiling right at the end, but this is only for ease of mixing, and serves no other real purpose.

Dry malt extract is the same...however, I'm of the opinion that it should go into the boil for at least a couple of minutes (at the end of the boil) to sanatise it, due to the fact that the packaging for dry extracts is not a sterile one, like a tin is with the liquid.

edit...and welcome to the forum.

 

[smollocks]

yes, thats correct, it has been boiled and whirlpooled. If the LME is in a tin (as opposed to a bulk drum), it will also be sterile, so theres not even any need to boil to sanatise. You might want to add it in to what you are boiling right at the end, but this is only for ease of mixing, and serves no other real purpose.

Dry malt extract is the same...however, I'm of the opinion that it should go into the boil for at least a couple of minutes (at the end of the boil) to sanatise it, due to the fact that the packaging for dry extracts is not a sterile one, like a tin is with the liquid.

I'm trying to understand a rough procedure for extract brewing but this is where I get confused.

If it's not necessary to boil LME, and DME only needs a couple of minutes boiling to sanitise it, then what malt are you boiling if you want to run your own hop schedule? I know you should boil the runnings after steeping specialty grains, but the extract recipes I've seen only need about a litre of steeping water.. and surely you wouldn't boil such a small amount of water for an hour while you add your own hops.

So are there any rules about what you should be boiling in an extract brew if you want to add your own hops? If I boil the wrong thing I imagine I'd end up with a much darker beer than intended.

 

[Supra-Jim]

Morning Smallocks,

No hard and fast rules, but I'll give you an example of how i do it with extract brewing. This method has worked time and time again and made many tasty brews.

Sample Recipe

2 x 1.5 kg tins of unhopped light liquid malt extract
500gms of light crystal
hops
yeast

I steep my grains in about 8 ltrs of water at 65-70deg for 30 mins. Once this is complete, i add one of the tins of goo and bring this to the boil. Then follow the given hop schedule for that recipe. Once the boil is completed, and before chilling, i then add the second tin of goo, stir to dissolve. Then chill and add top up water to make up my final volume.

Hope this helps!

:icon_cheers: SJ

 

[bconnery]

I'm trying to understand a rough procedure for extract brewing but this is where I get confused.

If it's not necessary to boil LME, and DME only needs a couple of minutes boiling to sanitise it, then what malt are you boiling if you want to run your own hop schedule? I know you should boil the runnings after steeping specialty grains, but the extract recipes I've seen only need about a litre of steeping water.. and surely you wouldn't boil such a small amount of water for an hour while you add your own hops.

So are there any rules about what you should be boiling in an extract brew if you want to add your own hops? If I boil the wrong thing I imagine I'd end up with a much darker beer than intended.

It isn't necessary to boil them for sanitary reasons, but you boil some malt with the hops so as to get proper extraction of the bittering and flavour compounds. You can use the grain runnings and/or extract for this.

Personally everything that went into my extract brews was boiled, at least for 5 minutes, just to be sure. At sort of time period you aren't getting much darkening.

 

[Gavo]

I'm trying to understand a rough procedure for extract brewing but this is where I get confused.

If it's not necessary to boil LME, and DME only needs a couple of minutes boiling to sanitise it, then what malt are you boiling if you want to run your own hop schedule? I know you should boil the runnings after steeping specialty grains, but the extract recipes I've seen only need about a litre of steeping water.. and surely you wouldn't boil such a small amount of water for an hour while you add your own hops.

So are there any rules about what you should be boiling in an extract brew if you want to add your own hops? If I boil the wrong thing I imagine I'd end up with a much darker beer than intended.

Rules...Shmules. When I was doing extracts and partials with small boils (I now do a full boil partail or not) I would do a small boil of around 8 litres that usually comprised of the runnings from the steeped or mashed grain and the and enough LDME to make up a gravity that was close to my final gravity.
I would boil the largest amount that you can comfortably do in the equipment you have. By doing this you will get more reliable hop utilization and it is easier to maintain a steady rolling boil with the larger volume.

Cheers
Gavo.

 

[smollocks]

I would do a small boil of around 8 litres that usually comprised of the runnings from the steeped or mashed grain and the and enough LDME to make up a gravity that was close to my final gravity.

Do you mean OG, rather than FG?

I did a bit of reading about boil gravity and it's starting to click that you only need to boil enough malt extract or steepings to give the boil a gravity of about 1040. Any remaining extract should be added at the end of the boil if desired for mixing or sanitary reasons. By only boiling this amount of extract, I presume that any darkening won't be too extreme.

I think it's the randomness of everyone's routines that has thrown me; some people boil half the extract, some boil all the extract, others boil the whole kit and they do it in timeframes from 5 mins to 60 mins. Now that I know a boil gravity in the region of 1040 gives optimum hop benefit, I can see some sense in the whole thing

Can anyone explain why this 1040 range is best though?

 

[np1962]

I steep my grains in about 8 ltrs of water at 65-70deg for 30 mins. Once this is complete, i add one of the tins of goo and bring this to the boil. Then follow the given hop schedule for that recipe. Once the boil is completed, and before chilling, i then add the second tin of goo, stir to dissolve. Then chill and add top up water to make up my final volume.

Hope this helps!

:icon_cheers: SJ

SJ
I assume you just typed this as a quick guide.
BUT, I feel it is important to mention that you SHOULD NEVER BOIL GRAINS, only the liquid they were steeped in.
Pedantic? Maybe but better sure than sorry.

Nige

 

[Jase71]

Can someone please elaborate on the science behind adding malt to a hop boil ? Quite frankly it sounds like one of those processes that is done simply because it's been stated that you should do so, but without any real credibility behind the method.

Having researched extraction methodology on other plant materials for end purposes that might be referred to as 'medicinal herbalism' - I'll thank you all to not make any dumb comments about weed, because that's not what I'm saying at all - and typically the consideration is towards how saturated the solvent (or water) can become before the liquid cannot extract any more of the target substance you are trying to extract. And to me, I would think that, if water is the best method for extracting the goodies from hops, in our case the flavour profiles, why bog down the 'host solvent' with a material that is going to be suspended in the liquid, thus reducing its saturation ability?

So personally I question the 'add some malt' rule of thumb here, not from any specific theory that I refer to that debunks it, but through some experience in other fields, and also a general lack of scientific reasoning behind it. Speculation & "golden rule' doesn't cut it.

I will gladly be corrected if someone can explain the mechanics behind it. Shout out to any organic chemists !?!?!

 

[bradsbrew]

I am only taking a stab at this and am taking a big guess here Jase. My theory would be that the sugars in the malt are going to make the boiling of the hops a lot less herbally harsh(not proper terminology I know) it would be like the difference in boiling veges then drink the water compared to boil the veges add stock to make soup then drink.
This probably doesnt make sense to anyone else but me but hey Ive had a few pints. B)