Berliner weisse technique

[peas_and_corn]

At one of the presentations at anhc (can't remember which) the idea of instead of having a sour mash to instead just pitch lactobacillus into the wort until it makes the amount of acid usually made in a sour mash and then pitch the brewer's yeast.

People who know things about sour beer- what are your thoughts about this fermentation schedule? What should I keep in mind if I do this?

 

[mje1980]

I did one sour mash. Went way wrong. Did the lacto first then German ale, much better. It's very hard to control a bought culture of bugs , let alone a wild culture. I'm not as experienced as others here but that's my thoughts. It can be done with good results

 

[rehabs_for_quitters]

I looked at souring with a culture but went sour mash as a lot of the comments I had heard were it lacks in funk a bit,

the strawberry I did turned out allright but 48 hours sour mashing was a bit puckering without any other flavours, going to have another go and sour for 24 hours, doesn't smell as rank now its fermented which is a bonus

 

[Jazzafish]

Check out sour worting on basic brewing video. A good podcast on it. On my growing to do list.

http://www.basicbrewing.com/?page=video

 

[scon]

I am doing one right now actually. My process was taken from Michael Tonsmiere's American Sour Beer's and thus far has been:

Get a 2L bottle of preservative free apple juice, open it and dump in a cup of malt (i used acidulated). Leave that at warm (~40C) temps for 3 days.

After three days decant 500mL into a sanitised jar and put away for safekeeping in case the experiment works and pour the rest into 2 x cubes of wort (70% pilsner 30% wheat 5IBU of fuggles) that I had made the previous weekend. This brought the levels of the cube right up to the cap, hopefully prohibiting O2 exposure. They are sitting in my chest freezer with a heat belt right now which from previous testing should get up to around 40C and I'll leave them there for three days or until they taste sour enough.

Once they're done I'll cool them to pitching temps, put them in a fermenter, hit with O2 and I'll pitch some US05 to ferment it out at around 20C. Might chuck some brett into one of the fermenters for comparison's sake.

After that I might split out 2 gallons into demijohns and play around with fruit additions.

 

[seamad]

I've tried the wild souring of wort technique before fermenting with normal yeast and failed. Couldn't get it to ferment ( I think because the pH was too low and preventing fermentation ) with MJ ale yeast, then US05 then top cropped some 1469 all to no avail, no drop in gravity at all. Probably should have left it to sour for 48 hours max but as it had the parmo cheese smell I left it go a bit longer before boiling to mellow a bit. Will try again with proper lacto culture and see how it goes.

 

[mje1980]

After my initial failure with sour mashing, I found pitching a wyeast lacto culture, then German ale much more risk free. , I'd rather have it a little less sour and work up from there, than have it go too far. The cube of the first one was so rank. I can't believe I didn't vomit. It would've smelt better

 

[Black n Tan]

Have a look at this

http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/attachments/presentations/pdf/2012/1616-09%20A%20Perspective%20on%20Brewing%20Weisse-style%20Beer%20-%20Jess%20Caudill%20&%20Jason%20Kahler.pdf

 

[hoppinmad]

I made one on the weekend using the sour wort technique. After saccharification brought the mash down to 50C. Added 500g unmilled malt. Rest for 30 minutes. Run off to completely fill glass carboy. Set temperature to 50C and leave to ferment on the natural lactobacillus for 3 days. Last night I did a 10 minute boil adding 30g saaz for an ibu of about 4ish, pitched a jar of US-05 slurry and now hoping for the best. Tastes good so far but not sure whether the pH will be too low for the yeast to handle. Does taste quite tart! Will have to wait and see I guess.

 

[vykuza]

This is the method I use (with pics) - though some haven't had the luck with it I do. I prefer this to pitching "clean" bugs, as I think it adds more depth of flavour, though you do expose yourself to more risk in making something not very pleasant, and it works much faster, once the wort/mash is soured and the sacc is done, then a week under the gas and it's beer o'clock!

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/66316-berliner-weisse/?p=1216759

My advice is to push through the vom smell, and it will sweeten up again.

 

[mje1980]

Do you add brett nick? I've added brett to one batch to see if it adds some funk.

 

[vykuza]

No, never added brett to a BW. It's not out of the question, but I like to brew them as a quick turnaround beer in summer.

 

[mje1980]

Ok cool. I tried one of my first batch just now, a month in the bottle. Tart but not very sour. Wish it were more highly carbed, I did carb it right up but not sure if it's just slow or what but it's average carbonation. Pretty happy with it but hoping the second batch I added onto the yeast cake will be more sour. It's got brett as well though, so maybe a little funk too.


I'll pluck up the courage to do the sour mash again, but when I can control the temp better. Might sour the wort in my ferm fridge, then add the German ale when it's good n sour, I'll be able to control temps better there. I'll see how the second batch turns out.

 

[scon]

I made one on the weekend using the sour wort technique. After saccharification brought the mash down to 50C. Added 500g unmilled malt. Rest for 30 minutes. Run off to completely fill glass carboy. Set temperature to 50C and leave to ferment on the natural lactobacillus for 3 days. Last night I did a 10 minute boil adding 30g saaz for an ibu of about 4ish, pitched a jar of US-05 slurry and now hoping for the best. Tastes good so far but not sure whether the pH will be too low for the yeast to handle. Does taste quite tart! Will have to wait and see I guess.

I'm thinking of doing it just like this but I wasn't going to boil after the lacto ferm. Do you think I'll get those garbagey flavours if i cool to 20 odd, oxygenate and pitch? My thoughts are that it could sour even further during & after the fermentation.

 

[Black n Tan]

Ok cool. I tried one of my first batch just now, a month in the bottle. Tart but not very sour. ight sour the wort in my ferm fridge, then add the German ale when it's good n sour, I'll be able to control temps better there. I'll see how the second batch turns out.

This is the statement everyone seems to make when tasting their first Berliner Weisse. I think it is unlikely to sour much more in the bottle because the ale yeast will dominate.When I made mine I added a Wyeast lacto starter for 7 days followed by the german ale 1007 yeast and mine was not sour enough at bottling time (pH3.8), so I added a little lactic acid before bottling to get it in the right range (pH3.3). Lactic acid can be a little one dimensional, but the lacto had already added a fair bit of character so worked quite well.

EDIT: pH values corrected

 

[mje1980]

Ok cool mate. I've heard the yeast cake can produce more sourness, so I pitched another straight into it. Fingers crossed. Don't get me wrong I'm enjoying it now, though I'd like a little more tang that's all. I guess I could leave the lacto go longer before pitching sacch ?

 

[rehabs_for_quitters]

I chuck the some un cracked grain into the mash at 40 degrees and hold, now last time I held for 48 hours before boiling, chilling and fermenting would the amount of un cracked grain have much bearing on how sour it got, I used 200 grams for a 40L batch and mine is quite puckering so was wondering if next time I either go for 48 hours on 100g or go 24 with 200g and see if it makes much difference.

And yes the vomit sock undies smell does subside once fermented and carbonated which I was concerned it wasn't going to go away and was gong to fight my senses to drink it

One thing I will be doing is investing in a good PH meter though

 

[GalBrew]

On one of the recent Sour Hour podcasts there was some good advice about kettle souring. Basically this guy purges his kettle with carbon dioxide in such a way that stops the rotten, stinky feet and acetic characters from forming.

 

[mje1980]

Ok cool mate. I've heard the yeast cake can produce more sourness, so I pitched another straight into it. Fingers crossed. Don't get me wrong I'm enjoying it now, though I'd like a little more tang that's all. I guess I could leave the lacto go longer before pitching sacch ?

I had a try of the 2nd batch sitting in fermentors this morning, much much more sour. Going to bottle one half today and leave the rest for another few weeks or months. Basically waiting to stock up on champas bottles.



Ok so I've only got 5 champagne stoppers . I'll leave it til after Xmas then order some more.

 

[going down a hill]

I'm about to tip my first batch of BW, i sour mashed with wyeast lacto and 100g of pils malt. My problem was that i soured on extremely windy days, I purged with c02 through the sight glass and got the head space nice and gassy and covered with glad-wrap but some O got in there because it has a cheese taste to it that isn't to my liking. I'm going to check the weather next time i sour again. Can't win em all.