Beat The Hop Shortage With No-chill.

[dr K]

Interesting
Hop or rather alpha acid utilisation is a function of time and temperature, we normally will say that 60 minutes at atm boiling will achieve maximum practicle utilisation, though at rolling boil some 90% of the final bitterness is achieved in 30 minutes. Lowering the temperature put the brakes on pretty quickly though, at 70C only 10% of "possible" final bitterness is achieved even after 90 minutes.
Hop aroma is greatly enhanced by fast cooling (doh!..sorry for the Kindy observation).
Result:
Adding hops to the NC might best be described as a sort of dry hopping, the bitterness value will be far below hops that have been boiled for maybe only 10 minutes, the aroma contribution will be minimal to none.
Of course subjective taste tests may well show me to be incorrect.

K

 

[Vlad the Pale Aler]

...and lets not forget that adding hops directly to the cube may kill the rampant botulism.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Interesting
Hop or rather alpha acid utilisation is a function of time and temperature, we normally will say that 60 minutes at atm boiling will achieve maximum practicle utilisation, though at rolling boil some 90% of the final bitterness is achieved in 30 minutes. Lowering the temperature put the brakes on pretty quickly though, at 70C only 10% of "possible" final bitterness is achieved even after 90 minutes.
Hop aroma is greatly enhanced by fast cooling (doh!..sorry for the Kindy observation).
Result:
Adding hops to the NC might best be described as a sort of dry hopping, the bitterness value will be far below hops that have been boiled for maybe only 10 minutes, the aroma contribution will be minimal to none.
Of course subjective taste tests may well show me to be incorrect.

K

Ahh but you are assuming that those cubes cool down faster than I think they do DrK - they stay awfully hot for quite a long time. That was the point of proposing this experiment, so that I could get some sort of a reasonable comparison without having to speculate that the bitterness "will be far below hops that have been boiled for maybe only ten minutes" I figured I'd actually find out, rather than assuming that I already knew what would happen.

My speculation, and thats what it is .. is that your speculation is some way off the mark. I have tasted several beers that were first wort hopped, at a point where the wort had yet to come to the boil, and they had already achieved a significant amount of their bitterness. The same applied to the beer that I brewed where I tried mash hopping. After an hour at merely 67 the wort had significant bitterness. Hard to relate wort bitterness to final beer bitterness I admit, but there was certainly a fair amount of utilisation that had gone on without the wort ever reaching a boil.

As for fast cooling enhancing hop aroma - why is that? you say its true, and I have heard and read that its true, I've even experienced it to be true; but that was always in beers that actually were chilled. Then the speed makes a difference.... but mostly the reason ascribed to this is that the volatile aroma compounds will evaporate away. Thats something that cant possibly happen inside a sealed NC cube. So whats your reason? I'm not saying you are wrong mind you, its just that the "stock" explanation isn't possible in an NC cube, so if you are right, we are going to need a better explanation than the one people usually trot out.

But we'll find out soon enough I expect. Those beers are ready to drink (have been for a while) I have just been waiting for the sedex doovalackies to do their thing. ATM if they are effective at all, they aren't up to the rigours of a poorly flocculent kolsch/Alt yeast, so I am just going to call it quits and do the taste test. Probably waited to long for a hell of a lot of info about aroma... but the comparison will still be there. The beers are the same age, so bitterness levels and aroma may have dropped off in both, but if there are differences the realtivities should still be the same.

Quintrex- we'll have to organize to get together for a drink one of these days and you can help me to analyse the damn things. I'm sure we can arrange for 3 or 4 brewers to get together for a tasting session

Thirsty

 

[Kai]

Interesting
Hop or rather alpha acid utilisation is a function of time and temperature, we normally will say that 60 minutes at atm boiling will achieve maximum practicle utilisation, though at rolling boil some 90% of the final bitterness is achieved in 30 minutes. Lowering the temperature put the brakes on pretty quickly though, at 70C only 10% of "possible" final bitterness is achieved even after 90 minutes.
Hop aroma is greatly enhanced by fast cooling (doh!..sorry for the Kindy observation).
Result:
Adding hops to the NC might best be described as a sort of dry hopping, the bitterness value will be far below hops that have been boiled for maybe only 10 minutes, the aroma contribution will be minimal to none.
Of course subjective taste tests may well show me to be incorrect.

K

A few things to think about here,

Assuming a cube of hot wort would stay above 70C for 90 minutes (and I'm not saying it does), you're still looking at an additional 5-6 IBU. Not much in a DIPA I'll grant, but a big difference in a low IBU beer. And just imagine if you put 50-60g of chinook or simcoe in there instead... suddenly that's over 20 IBU.

Secondly, as thirsty boy has mentioned, where does that aroma go if it can't evaporate? Sure, some compounds may be altered purely from the heat, so perhaps one could say that the length of time a cube of wort takes to cool will result in a different balance of hop flavour (faster cooling) and bitterness (slower cooling). Regardless, in my experience no-chill hopping does give good aroma.

 

[Darren]

I would say there will be hardly any difference. In my experience 80% of the hop oil is released within minutes of hitting boiling temps. Leaving a cube for an hour should extract all (or at least most) the oils.

cheers

Darren

 

[Thirsty Boy]

OK, so I just made a typically long post to another thread about No chill hopping, and it reminded me that I have to update this thread with the results of the experiment. So heres an even longer post.

To update - I wanted to compare two beers. One chilled and one no-chilled, with the chilled beer having a fairly normal hopping schedule and the No-Chilled brew having no hops at all added to the boil and getting all its hop attributes from an addition to the NC cube.

Heres what I did:

2 batches made up to 1.050 from DME only - I worked in 2L erlenmyer flasks and was aiming for 2 1L batches and for 2 x 750ml of finished beer.

First beer was hopped to 27.3IBU (rager in pro-mash) with a 60 minute a 10 minute and a FO addition - I used cascade pellet hops @ about 8% AA. This wort was chilled in an ice bath immediately following the boil.

The second beer got no kettle hops at all, the hops were placed loose in the NC vessel at the end of the boil. This addition was calculated to give me the same number of IBUs - assuming that I would get a bitterness from the cube hops equivalent to that which would have been gotten by adding them with 25 mins to go in a "normal" boil. The amount of hops needed to do this was approximately 60% of that needed for the original beer.

The NC beer was placed in a temperature controlled bath and cooled down slowly from 100C to 70-75 over two hours and just let cool naturally after that. This is actually a bit faster than it would go in a 25L cube

The beers were then pitched to a 1.25L coke bottle fermentor with 10ml of slurry from the Alt starter I was growing - the bottles were taped together and fermented in a water bath with an aquarium heater taped exactly in the middle of them.

After fermentation was complete, the resulting beers were bottled into 750ml glass bottles, primed with a regulation dose of sugar, shoved in my beer cupboard and forgotten about for quite a number of months.

Till Sunday.....

On Sunday I was at a beer tasting with AHB member JJefferys and 5 of his friends. I imposed on JJeffreys and his mate and fellow homebrewer Nat to help me evaluate the results of the experiment.

The observations were -

The chilled beer was moderately bitter and possessed of fairly strong but slightly raw hop aroma - typically cascade in nature. Moderate hop flavour.

The no-chill beer was compared to the chilled beer and all three tasters found it to be more strongly bitter (distinctly so) more full and rounded in its hop flavour and with an aroma that was perhaps slightly less intense, but more complex and somehow smoother.

All three tasters preferred the NC beer - describing it as more complex and full in its flavours.

The NC beer was also noticeably darker than the chilled beer - perfectly reasonable if you think about the length of time for melanoidin development.

Conclusions ---

Well, if you can really draw all that many from a single experiment; the NC hopping produced a beer that was acceptable in Hop flavour, Hop aroma and bitterness & not only compared favorable to a beer that was hopped "normally" but was in fact preferred by the tasters. The NC beer used less than 2/3rds of the hops used in the chilled beer.

The bitterness level of the NC beer actually exceeded the level anticipated by the experiment and if I were to repeat the exercise, would calculate the bitterness of hops added to a NC cube as equivalent to that of hops added with 30 mins to go in the boil. I added these hops loose in the NC vessel I used, so I assume that you would get a bit less from hops ina hop bag in the cube, so perhaps back to the 25 minute guesstimate, or even 20mins.

Therefore my original contention is supported and you could save money on hops by forgoing all kettle additions and substituting a large NC cube addition.

maybe........

TB

 

[Swinging Beef]

An excellent experiment.
Do ten more and then draw some conclusions.
This is excellent beer science at its best.

 

[Quintrex]

Nice work thirsty, been looking forward to hearing the results from this.

I'll do a follow up experiment for you in the next few weeks if I can.

It'd kinda be good to get the ibu's tested so we can come up with a reasonable idea for the bitterness.

Catchya soon

Q

OK, so I just made a typically long post to another thread about No chill hopping, and it reminded me that I have to update this thread with the results of the experiment. So heres an even longer post.

To update - I wanted to compare two beers. One chilled and one no-chilled, with the chilled beer having a fairly normal hopping schedule and the No-Chilled brew having no hops at all added to the boil and getting all its hop attributes from an addition to the NC cube.

Heres what I did:

2 batches made up to 1.050 from DME only - I worked in 2L erlenmyer flasks and was aiming for 2 1L batches and for 2 x 750ml of finished beer.

First beer was hopped to 27.3IBU (rager in pro-mash) with a 60 minute a 10 minute and a FO addition - I used cascade pellet hops @ about 8% AA. This wort was chilled in an ice bath immediately following the boil.

The second beer got no kettle hops at all, the hops were placed loose in the NC vessel at the end of the boil. This addition was calculated to give me the same number of IBUs - assuming that I would get a bitterness from the cube hops equivalent to that which would have been gotten by adding them with 25 mins to go in a "normal" boil. The amount of hops needed to do this was approximately 60% of that needed for the original beer.



Conclusions ---

Well, if you can really draw all that many from a single experiment; the NC hopping produced a beer that was acceptable in Hop flavour, Hop aroma and bitterness & not only compared favorable to a beer that was hopped "normally" but was in fact preferred by the tasters. The NC beer used less than 2/3rds of the hops used in the chilled beer.

The bitterness level of the NC beer actually exceeded the level anticipated by the experiment and if I were to repeat the exercise, would calculate the bitterness of hops added to a NC cube as equivalent to that of hops added with 30 mins to go in the boil. I added these hops loose in the NC vessel I used, so I assume that you would get a bit less from hops ina hop bag in the cube, so perhaps back to the 25 minute guesstimate, or even 20mins.

Therefore my original contention is supported and you could save money on hops by forgoing all kettle additions and substituting a large NC cube addition.

maybe........

TB

 

[Thirsty Boy]

An excellent experiment.
Do ten more and then draw some conclusions.
This is excellent beer science at its best.

Don't need to - experiments need to be repeatable, not repeated to be valid. My results are perfectly valid until such times as someone repeats the experiment and contradicts them. Till then I get the "I have experimental results and you don't" bragging rights

Statistics would make for a better experiment though.

It would be great to get another result to either confirm or counteract though - sounds like Q might be coming to the rescue.

Let me know if/whn you do it Q - I left the beers at JJeffrey's place and forget to bring home samples to take to work for IBU analysis. I could do it with your experiment though.

TB

 

[Cortez The Killer]

That's great work thirsty boy!

Cheers

 

[crundle]

Regarding the discussion about agitation being a factor in hop extraction while on the boil, maybe try using a stirring magnet in the cube while it cools?

I have no idea if this would be possible, but if agitation is a significant factor in hop extraction, then this would assist one would think.

Crundle

 

[Quintrex]

Regarding the discussion about agitation being a factor in hop extraction while on the boil, maybe try using a stirring magnet in the cube while it cools?

I have no idea if this would be possible, but if agitation is a significant factor in hop extraction, then this would assist one would think.

Crundle

Don't think so. I think it'll play a moderate role over the first 5 minutes, especially with flowers/plugs however as soon as the oil is extracted, which I'd imagine would be reasonably quick, especially with pellets, it becomes reliant on the kinetics of isomerisation ie in regard to heat/time.

Q

 

[Polar Beer]

That's awesome TB.

I've always been an NC'er and I've been frustrated by higher then expected bitterness. It's always been suggested it could be the NC method, but I've been cautious and only scaled back hop additions marginally (haven't done enough AG to make big changes). Certainly dropping all kettle additions wasn't on the radar.

But based on this, it's clear cut. NC + standard hopping schedule = more bitter then chill. If you NC, adjust accordingly.

Can't wait to try it.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

That's awesome TB.

I've always been an NC'er and I've been frustrated by higher then expected bitterness. It's always been suggested it could be the NC method, but I've been cautious and only scaled back hop additions marginally (haven't done enough AG to make big changes). Certainly dropping all kettle additions wasn't on the radar.

But based on this, it's clear cut. NC + standard hopping schedule = more bitter then chill. If you NC, adjust accordingly.

Can't wait to try it.

P & L -

There has been another recent thread with a lively discussion of the very topic you are referring to. It was called No-Chill Hopping - http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=28155

Lots of opinions about increased cube bitterness. Mine, partially informed by this experiment, was that its primarily the late hop additions that are responsible for increased bitterness in NC brews. But I wont go into detail because I went into far too many in the other thread anyway (as usual)

TB

oh - and I think its far from clear cut, other people have different experiences. This is just a bit more data in the pool, I was simply trying to cut away a bit of the fuzz introduced by anecdotal "evidence" and maybe save a few people some dollars on hops. Hell I dont even care about hops... I get most of mine for free.

 

[Polar Beer]

oh - and I think its far from clear cut, other people have different experiences. This is just a bit more data in the pool, I was simply trying to cut away a bit of the fuzz introduced by anecdotal "evidence" and maybe save a few people some dollars on hops.

Thanks TB, have been following the other thread. Good info. If your results are not clear cut, they certainly provide the most compelling argument. Tally's with my experience and at this stage you seem to be the only contributer prepared to put your theory to the test. Mainly the rest is as you put it, "Fuzz".

Hell I dont even care about hops... I get most of mine for free.

How do i get into that bulk buy?

Cheers

 

[Quintrex]

Ok did the followup experiment thirsty
Here is what I thought would provide the most meaningful data, but I could be wrong and there could be a better way to test these things.

Here are the aims of this experiment I guess.

1) to find out roughly how much bitterness cube hoping gives?
2) to find out how much hop flavour/aroma is given by the same amount of hops added in cube-hopping as compared to the same amount of aroma/flavour hops added late in a traditional(rapidly chilled) brew

So I made up 30L worth of rye pale ale wort, split 10L worth into one saucepan, kept the other 20L worth in the main saucepan.
although the promash recipes below show split grain bills both came from one mash.

Below is the stats for the cube hopped one, I used the 30 minute guess by thirstboy as an estimation of the bitterness the cube hopping would give, as this would allow me to bitter the rapidly chilled one to a similar amount(with a neutral hop), and then use the equivalent amount of aroma hops added at 10 minutes and compare the hop flavour of both the beers.


Hop Experiment - Cube

A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 20.00 Wort Size (L): 20.00
Total Grain (kg): 4.35
Anticipated OG: 1.048 Plato: 12.02
Anticipated SRM: 4.2
Anticipated IBU: 36.2
Brewhouse Efficiency: 77 %
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
76.6 3.33 kg. BB Pale Malt Australia 75.96 2
12.3 0.53 kg. BB Wheat Australia 78.75 2
3.8 0.17 kg. Weyermann Carahell Germany 70.67 13
7.4 0.32 kg. Rye Malt America 60.88 4

Potential represented as % Yield, Coarse Grind As Is.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
20.00 g. Cascade Whole 5.75 8.8 30 min.
16.67 g. Simcoe Pellet 12.80 17.9 30 min.
16.67 g. Saaz B Pellet 6.80 9.5 30 min.



Hop Experiment - Crash Chill

A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 10.00 Wort Size (L): 10.00
Total Grain (kg): 2.18
Anticipated OG: 1.048 Plato: 12.02
Anticipated SRM: 4.2
Anticipated IBU: 39.5
Brewhouse Efficiency: 77 %
Wort Boil Time: 80 Minutes

Formulas Used
-------------

Brewhouse Efficiency and Predicted Gravity based on Method #1, Potential Used.
Final Gravity Calculation Based on Points.
Hard Value of Sucrose applied. Value for recipe: 46.2100 ppppg
% Yield Type used in Gravity Prediction: Coarse Grind As Is.

Color Formula Used: Morey
Hop IBU Formula Used: Rager

Additional Utilization Used For Plug Hops: 2 %
Additional Utilization Used For Pellet Hops: 10 %


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
76.6 1.67 kg. BB Pale Malt Australia 75.96 2
12.3 0.27 kg. BB Wheat Australia 78.75 2
3.8 0.08 kg. Weyermann Carahell Germany 70.67 13
7.4 0.16 kg. Rye Malt America 60.88 4

Potential represented as % Yield, Coarse Grind As Is.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
10.00 g. Cascade Whole 5.75 3.4 10 min.
8.33 g. Simcoe Pellet 12.80 7.0 10 min.
8.33 g. Saaz B Pellet 6.80 3.7 10 min.
5.01 g. Millenium Pellet 14.40 25.3 80 min.


Extras

Amount Name Type Time
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
0.25 Tsp Koppafloc Fining 10 Min.(boil)


Yeast
-----
Rogue Pacman



What I hope to see is if there is any difference in hop flavour/aroma between the two brews, remember both have the same amount of flavour hops per litre.

The second thing I hope to find out with the help of thirstyboy is how much bitterness does cubehopping give?


Wish me luck
Q

BTW hops were measured to two decimal places, rapidly chilled wort, chilled as fast as I could with an icebath.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Sounds cool Q,

I can take a sample of both beers to work and see if I can talk the lab guys into analyzing for ISO. Should give us a nice comparison of the bitterness, and incidentally a comparison of how "calculated" IBUs stack up to measured IBUs into the bargain.

With your experiment and mine, we are going to start building a little pool of more concrete data about how no chill effects hop falvour/aroma/bitterness - hopefully we can get a few more people to run a nice tight experiment, then we can start to draw a few more solid conclusions.

Thirsty

 

[Tony]

What hop shortage?????



Great work folks! Good to see some stepping outside the square!

cheers

 

[Polar Beer]

Well I haven't been as cautious (perhaps sensible) as you blokes. With all the time off, I've put down 3 brews in the last week and 'No Kettle Hopped' (?) them all. Put hops into the cube equal to 25 minute additions. Shook them up every 20 or so minutes for 2 hours.

Beers in the cubes are all from the recipe DB

1 x Easy down GP
1 x Ross's summer ale
1 x Pillar of stout

The pillar of stout actually needed more hops in the cube then if I added to the kettle. I guess it's because it goes light on the late hops. I No kettle hopped anyway.

All 3 had detectable bitterness in the hydrometer sample, with levels seemingly proportionate to the volume of hops added to the cube.

I've brewed the Summer ale before and I'm a heavy weight stout drinker. So I wont have any side by side comparison, but I'll be able to tell you if the beer is any good. Especially after all 60L has gone down.

At least for now, I'm No Chilling, No Sparging and No Kettle Hopping.

Will return with results at end of Jan

BTW - I'd be very interested to see any results you get from your lab TB.

Cheers

 

[Thirsty Boy]

way to take a concept and run mate - jeez, I was only willing to risk a couple of litres of extract brew on the idea, you've banged down 60L of your finest...

choo da man